CM books & continuing education

[Guest guest]

 

 

Even more likely than turf battles is someone winding up in court

being sued and the opposing lawyer asking the practitioner if they

have read such and such article. Courts have ruled that it is

negligence on the part of Western physicians not to stay up with the

relevant journal literature. In other words, you can't defend yourself

by saying, " I never read that. " One or two cases like this and people

will be singing a different tune. When ingorance of the Chinese

medical literature becomes legally actionable, studying Chinese in

order to read that literature will become de rigeur.

 

However, I don't think it is necessary for people only doing

acupuncture to have Chinese language skills -- nice but not necessary.

I agree with you that acupuncturists are and should be thought of as

bodyworkers as opposed to physicians. Recognition of this fact wouold

go a long way to squaring the what is of our profession with what we

think it is. Having taught at both a massage schools and acupuncture

colleges, seems to me the same group of students with the same skills

and propensities, plus and minus. As an extension of this, I also

support a two-tiered profession.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

 

 

Honora and I are big library users even though (or because) we are

publishers. However, I think library study within our profession is

pretty much confined to a few CM " ghettos, " such as San Diego,

Boulder, Santa Fe, and Portland. So I think your 50% number is quite a

bit too high, even if my 10% number is too low.

 

Further, many schools do not put the resources they should into

building and maintaining their libraries. A past librarian at your own

institution has told me of the cavalier (if not downright dismissive)

attitude of at least one major administrator to the PCOM library.

 

And then there's the problem of library theft.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 10:05 AM, wrote:

 

> I just do not

> believe our profession has the will, so I focus my attention on an

> achievable

> goal, which is insuring that accurate translations are used and

> steering

> students away from bogus MSU.

 

Hi

 

What parameters do you use to differentiate MSU from insight or lesser

known traditions?

 

> The laxity of our CEU system in CA is already under investigation.

 

Can you tell us who is investigating and what are they looking for?

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

The ability to back up what one says or does through one's reasoning

tools.

 

 

On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 12:32 PM, al stone wrote:

 

> What parameters do you use to differentiate MSU from insight or lesser

> known traditions?

[Guest guest]

Even more likely than turf battles is someone winding up in court being sued and the opposing lawyer asking the practitioner if they have read such and such article. Courts have ruled that it is negligence on the part of Western physicians not to stay up with the relevant journal literature.

 

>>>For this you need a standard of care which is impossible with TCM. Also, you can not hold a western MD responsible for articles published in other languages. This is a non issue.

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Courts have ruled that it is

> negligence on the part of Western physicians not to stay up with the

> relevant journal literature.

>

> >>>For this you need a standard of care which is impossible with

TCM. Also, you can not hold a western MD responsible for articles

published in other languages. This is a non issue.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

chinese medical chinese = increased liability? there's an interesting

twist....

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> The ability to back up what one says or does through one's reasoning

> tools.

>

>

 

assuming that all lesser known traditions are rationalistic. Ogawa

Takayoshi wrote an article for NAJOM back in 1996 in which he

presented his case for TCM being an exception in OM traditions rather

than the rule specifically because of its WM-like rational structure.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

I'd like a copy of that. . .can you link me or help me get one?

 

I am interested, considering that lesser conditions are also rational

structure, what he (or you) thinks is WM-like about TCM.

 

 

On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 02:11 PM, kampo36 wrote:

 

> assuming that all lesser known traditions are rationalistic. Ogawa

> Takayoshi wrote an article for NAJOM back in 1996 in which he

> presented his case for TCM being an exception in OM traditions rather

> than the rule specifically because of its WM-like rational structure.

>

> robert hayden

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I'd like a copy of that. . .can you link me or help me get one?

>

> I am interested, considering that lesser conditions are also rational

> structure, what he (or you) thinks is WM-like about TCM.

>

>

>

 

You can contact Junji Mizutani through the website

http://members.shaw.ca/najom/Ehome.htm

 

If back issues aren't available i can dig one out and send a copy of the

article. As I understand it, Ogawa's basic premise (largely comparing

Meridian Therapy to TCM) is that TCM is in a more-or-less tree or flow-

chart type structure similar to linear WM decision-making, where MT

uses more intuitive (there's that word again) judgements based on the

practitioner's experience -- one thing which flies in the face of the rest

of the evidence may be just the factor that determines the sho.

Outcome becomes solely dependent on the practitioner's experience

and skill, where TCM is designed more as a system in which the

pattern is based on the preponderance of evidence and outcomes can

be replicated more easily by less experienced practitioners.

 

You'd best read his article though, i'm sure i'm putting words in his

mouth.

 

TCM really is more conducive to learning using classroom models,

where MT is really assimilated better by watching and doing --

Japanese teachers usually don't have a lot of patience for theorizing

and asking questions. I've been in situations where all of the students in

a certain group agreed on the pattern (including some very experienced

students), and the teacher would come along and determine a totally

different sho -- and then another teacher would come by without

conferring with the first and determine the same sho as the previous

teacher. We couldn't figure out what they were basing it on sometimes.

 

robert

[Guest guest]

, " kampo36 " wrote:

> If back issues aren't available i can dig one out and send a copy

of the article. >>>

 

 

Robert:

 

Please post a copy to the files section of the forum.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Since TCM is more based on internal medicine (herbal medicine), it

would seem to need a more logical structure. However, even MT is based

on classical Chinese literature. . . . however, in a more spontaneous,

interpretive way. It would seem to me that the skill sets of Japanese

teachers may be more physically based, but that they have a deep well

of classical knowledge insides their heads and hearts.

 

 

 

On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 02:45 PM, kampo36 wrote:

 

> TCM really is more conducive to learning using classroom models,

> where MT is really assimilated better by watching and doing --

> Japanese teachers usually don't have a lot of patience for theorizing

> and asking questions. I've been in situations where all of the

> students in

> a certain group agreed on the pattern (including some very experienced

> students), and the teacher would come along and determine a totally

> different sho -- and then another teacher would come by without

> conferring with the first and determine the same sho as the previous

> teacher. We couldn't figure out what they were basing it on sometimes.

[Guest guest]

 

 

>

> At PCOM we are forcing the writing of papers where students have

to

> extensively explain diagnoses and pathomechanisms. while most

gripe

> endlessly about these papers, they all also admit how much they

learned in

> the process. some forcing is necessary in academics. And I have

never denied

> that such forcing would be desirable with regard to language. I

just do not

> believe our profession has the will, so I focus my attention on an

achievable

> goal, which is insuring that accurate translations are used and

steering

> students away from bogus MSU.

 

I am all in favor of pursuing achievable

goals. Clearly stating and maintaining

a clear objective to achieve long term

and currently " unachievable " goals can

be a powerful force to harness in working

to achieve both those goals that appear

currently achievable and those that appear

impossible.

 

In other words, we should lose sight of

our ideals simply because they seem

distant. Nor should we give up the near

to seek the far.

 

We truly are all in this boat together

and the best we can do is row.

 

 

>

> Interestingly, the only school I am aware of that has succesfully

integrated

> chinese into their program is SIOM. they do now require a year of

chinese as

> prereq, though, as they found that even devoting all the time they

could

> within the program was not sufficient. And they also believe that

their small

> group problem solving based methodology is essential for acquiring

language

> as well as clinical skills. So perhaps there is a possible

dovetailing of concerns

> and demands here. If case based learning frees up class time and

yields better

> retention than rote lectures, then more time would be available

for language

> study. If case based learning is more akin to traditional

apprenticeship than

> rote lecture, we kill two birds with one stone. And we

simultaneously recreate

> an environment closer to that in which CM evolved, in which study

of chinese

> classics went hand in hand with praxis.

 

Makes sense to me.

 

>

> My teacher was forced by her father to study classics all morning

starting at

> age 11. Then all afternoon she worked in his clinic, beginning to

see her own

> pt. when she was 14. She had already been treating patients for 6

years

> before she had her first " lecture " class in med school. with a

study of chinese

> language, case based learning and immediate clinical immersion, we

could

> accomplish a lot. again, I do not think learning chinese is

necessary to practice

> effectively.

 

Do you bring this up because you actually

want to talk about it? Or are you so

attached to this particular idea that

it forces you to state it whenever

the subject surfaces?

 

If you want to talk about it...again...

I am, as you no doubt know, absolutely

happy to do so. But I really can't take

it when someone brings up a subject and

then says they don't want to talk about

it.

 

But we can also talk about training the cream of the crop, too.

> This is essentially SIOM's highly acclaimed model and PCOM is 2/3

of the way

> there (our chinese class was cancelled for the 12th semester in a

row due to

> low enrollment).

 

This reflects, I believe, the repetition

of the mantra that it is not necessary to

learn Chinese in order to practice effectively

by various of the faculty...such as your

esteemed self.

 

Students listen.

 

They do, for the most part, as they are told.

 

Why in the world tell them that a basic

critical skill is not necessary?

 

Why not tell them the truth?

 

The cognitive dissonance that exists between

what we know and what we do is, in fact,

the precondition that makes the whole field

vulnerable to investigators.

 

 

>

> I am currently forcing myself to learn chinese, something that has

finally

> become possible for my character impaired mind with the use of

wenlin.

 

Why are you doing that? It is not necessary

to learn Chinese in order to practice effectively.

 

Why bother?

 

We

> may want to consider the fact that it may become an issue in the

future over

> who has the right to teach and even practice TCM. And this may

hinge on the

> language issue. While on one hand, we might make the case that

that there

> are ample rigorous books in english for TCM training. On the

other hand, the

> publishers of many of these same books are actually some of the

strongest

> advocates of the essential importance of learning chinese (Bensky,

Flaws, Felt).

> So if we try and make the case that we already have what we need,

how do we

> reconcile that with these companies principals actually working

against their

> own vested interests (if we read chinese, we no longer need their

books).

 

I don't agree. I think that the English language

literature can be extremely useful. It would be

the height of hypocrisy for me to think otherwise,

since I work so damn hard to create English language

literature on the subject.

 

In fact, if and when people acquire access

to the Chinese literature, then the dialog

between English writers and their Chinese

counterparts...past, present, and future,

becomes all the richer and more pertinent

to the ongoing development of the field.

 

There is no mutual exclusivity.

 

We are all in the same boat.

 

All of us.

 

 

>

> In addition, even if we have access to adequate basic texts, which

I think we

> do, we do not have adequate access to journals, research and case

studies. so

> while I think we have basic academics covered, we not have enough

info about

> clinical practice. I think we would be horrified if our MD's did

not have access

> to the latest medical journals and I am concerned that in our

profession's

> endless battles over turf, the issue of such lack of access will

eventually come

> up. The laxity of our CEU system in CA is already under

investigation. We'll

> see what's next.

 

It is inevitable that the field be investigate.

 

There's just too much of this cognitive dissonance.

All that has to happen is for the total dollar

volume generated in transactions in the field

to cross some invisible threshold beyond which

the public...and therefore its various agencies

and media...notice what is going on in detail.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Bob, and All other brave hearts,

 

We used to have this discussion when

there were just a couple dozen of us

here on the list. But you've both

mentioned it in recent posts, and I

guess it's time to have it yet again.

 

At least I am not willing to see it

scroll by without letting it go unchallenged.

 

So here is the question:

 

Is it necessary to have Chinese language

skills (as one element in a set of

skills and competencies) in order to

study, understand, and apply

 

a) acupuncture

b) Chinese medicine

c) model airplane building

 

I have outlined beliefs here and

in a little book called Who Can Ride

the Dragon?

 

I just want to ask you both a question:

 

If it's not necessary, why do it?

 

Musashi wrote never do anything that

is not necessary.

 

What makes it nice?

 

What do we really want to tell the

800+ people who read this list?

 

What do we really want to tell the

investigators and lawyers?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

> , " kampo36 " wrote:

> > If back issues aren't available i can dig one out and send a copy

> of the article. >>>

>

>

> Robert:

>

> Please post a copy to the files section of the forum.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

I'd need to get permission, I'll let you know....

 

rh

[Guest guest]

Bob, have to take exception to the second half of your statement

<<< " this situation isn't going to change. If you keep doing what you're

doing, you keep getting what you're currently getting: too many ignorant

teachers teaching too many lazy, intellectually stunted students.... " >>>

 

Blaming " lazy, intellectually stunted students.... " for a failed education

system is absurd.

 

Just my opinion but I'd say that the average university with the " Publish or

Perish " professors, their students, do not read any more than our present

high school level acupuncture schools students.

 

Although there now is a huge amount of material available - compared to just

10 years ago - the acupuncture community has not been able to focus any real

zeal. This is due to a large degree in the demands of the State Exam, and

its infrastructure, which has little to do with actual clinical practice.

 

 

What do any of these classics have to do with passing the state exam?

 

Students - mid-life crisis types who are sponges for truth - when I was in

school - were told by teachers and fellow students alike - to keep your eye

on the prize - which was the state exam. No one wanted to talk about

anything that was not exam related.

 

Compare those students with tutorial students - who have actual clinical

knowledge and can't pass the exam. (less than 25% tutorials students pass

the exam)

 

I would guess that most graduates after a successful exam pass, are left

with a bad taste of the books (and a few teachers) and feel more frustrated

when most of them don't feel confident of giving treatments on their own -

and most are struggling financially.

 

My point is that the state exam, the course outline, the schools were all

established not by students but by the gods.

 

 

M.D's know how to write a prescription before graduation

Ciro's know how to crack backs, take X Rays, write reports advertise,

promote their business

Naturopaths know their stuff

 

Because they all have a system in place that generates success.

 

in conclusion I totally agree with the first half of the statement

" this situation isn't going to change. If you keep doing what you're doing,

"

 

Ed Kasper

 

 

 

Thu, 17 Jul 2003 15:11:36 -0000

" Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001

CM books & continuing education

 

Jim suggests an interesting question: asking prospective DAOM

candidates how many books on CM & acupuncture they have read. I

believe what Jim is getting at is that all too few of our graduates

are active continuing students and readers within this field.

 

Recently, this has been a big discussion at Blue Poppy. What

percentage of graduates go on to continuously buy and read books on

acupuncture and CM? Based on Blue Poppy Press sales figures, I would

say only a small percentage of graduates go on to be active continuing

education readers and book-buyers. By active, I mean 5-7 or more books

per year. By small percentage, I'd put the number at 10% or less.

Further, the books which do sell best are typically the simplest reads

offering the most cookbook approaches. (Please don't ask me to name

names.)

 

Our general manager has been running the numbers on copies of

individual books sold over the last one year period. He's lobbying for

discontinuing the sale of any titles not selling at least 100 copies

per year. Almost all of our Great Masters series fail to meet this

requirement. The number 100 has to do with POD (print on demand)

economics and capablities. This means Blue Poppy Press will probably

be letting a number of titles go out of print as current inventories

sell out. Although these books will still be available in e-book form

(such as through Net Library) for serious researchers, they will not

be available in hardcopy.

 

>From where I sit, it seems that books have one main chance to sell

within this niche market and that is if they are required as textbooks

in entry-level education. Books that are not required or seriously

recommended tend to languish in publisher's limbo no matter how good

they are. It is ironic that students and practitioners are always

repeating the sibboleth about how we need to get back to the " real "

Chinese medicine embodied in the classics. However, when those

classics are offered for sale in English, people do not buy them. As a

for instance, only 31 copies of the Jia Yi Jing sold during all of

2002. So there seems to be a big disconnect between what many people

say and what people actually support with their pocketbooks. (Duh.)

 

As the total number of books in English on Chinese medicine continues

to rise, it means that publishers can expect a decreasing piece of the

pie for any one title. Because the total market size is not increasing

as fast as many people once assumed (due to attrition), this makes

publishing books for this market less and less financially attractive

and especially books which target slower selling niches within this

overall niche, such as the classics. It also makes it less attractive

to sink a lot of time and money into the creation of high quality

books which then must compete with lower quality imports.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: As long as the schools keep

doing things the way they are doing them (as described by recent CHA

posts from current students), this situation isn't going to change. If

you keep doing what you're doing, you keep getting what you're

currently getting: too many ignorant teachers teaching too many lazy,

intellectually stunted students.

 

Bob

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release 7/14/2003

[Guest guest]

, " J. Lynn Detamore " <

healthworks@j...> wrote:

>

> Well, how nice that you guys can afford all those books.... Just because people can't afford (hopefully only temporarily) to shell it out, doesn't mean they're not reading or that they are " lesser " practitioners.

: I am not sure who wrote this, but it is an excellent point.

 

Lynn: to be certain that credit is properly assigned, Pat Ethridge posted the above comment. i simply replied to it.

[Guest guest]

>

> Why are you doing that? It is not necessary

> to learn Chinese in order to practice effectively.

>

 

because I am curious about the outcome which I cannot know unless I try.

 

[Guest guest]

 

" Interestingly, the only school I am aware of that has succesfully

integrated chinese into their program is SIOM. "

 

As a point of information, the school where I did my first year of

training, The Academy of Classical Oriental Sciences, just over the

U.S. border in British Columbia, has a two year language component in

their program (12 credits - 180 hours). It wasn't every student, but

there were some who took the ball and ran with it, and by their

fourth year internship in China were able to read, write and converse

in Chinese.

 

The school's web page says they're adding a 5 year TCM program for

the 2003-2004 year, but I didn't see the curriculum, so don't know

how much Chinese is in the new program.

 

(And unless something has changed, graduates of the program are

eligible to sit for the national exam here in the U.S.)

 

-Chad

[Guest guest]

I think this might have to do with a bad economy. Less patients come to see the acupuncturist, therefore the acupuncturist has less money to spend on books. Just my $0.02.

 

Robert Chu

chusauli

 

-

Bob Flaws

Friday, July 18, 2003 8:45 AM

Re: CM books & continuing education

Z'ev,Blue Poppy Press sales for 2003 so far are down by 18% from last year. So much for a "growing" market.(I'm only talking about Blue Poppy Press here, not Blue Poppy Enterprises, Inc. as a whole, i.e., Blue Poppy Herbs & Blue Poppy Institute. BPE gross sales for 2003 are up.)BobChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

 

> >

> > Why are you doing that? It is not necessary

> > to learn Chinese in order to practice effectively.

> >

>

> because I am curious about the outcome which I cannot know unless

I try.

>

>

 

Sorry, but I just have to ask...

 

If you cannot know the outcome unless you

try, then how can you possibly say that

it is not necessary to learn Chinese

in order to practice effectively?

 

Doesn't making such a statement imply

that you know the outcome already?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " kenrose2008 " <

kenrose2008> wrote:

 

 

> If you cannot know the outcome unless you

> try, then how can you possibly say that

> it is not necessary to learn Chinese

> in order to practice effectively?

>

> Doesn't making such a statement imply

> that you know the outcome already?

 

I don't follow your logic. Effectiveness is determined by patient outcomes.

One can gauge that even if one does not know anything at all about TCM. I

believe TCM is effective for most complaints when practiced at a very basic

level. I see this every day for 16 years. I am curious whether learning chinese

would increase effectivenss in any measurable way.

 

[Guest guest]

, " chadwick_m " <

chadwick_m@h...> wrote:

>

> " Interestingly, the only school I am aware of that has succesfully

> integrated chinese into their program is SIOM. "

 

Chad and Dave

 

I applaud Five Branches and ACOS in including chinese in their curriculums.

But with all due respect to what you describe, it is still not the same as

SIOM's

requirement for ALL students to study chinese throughout the entire program.

It is nice to hear that ACOS's 2 year program in chinese actually has enough

students to make it fly. It is not surprising that Five branches doesn't have

enough interest in chinese for additional classes as neither does PCOM (socal,

y'know). But its very cool if you learn grammar and character writing skills

that first semester. then you can proceed with self study using wiseman books

and wenlin.

 

[Guest guest]

" It is nice to hear that ACOS's 2 year program in chinese actually

has enough students to make it fly. "

 

The language requirement at ACOS is mandatory.

 

-Chad

[Guest guest]

, " chadwick_m " <

chadwick_m@h...> wrote:

It wasn't every student, but

> there were some who took the ball and ran with it, and by their

> fourth year internship in China were able to read, write and converse

> in Chinese.

 

I misunderstood this to mean that not every student took the classes. I now

understand you meant not every student actually learned to read chinese

unless they pursued the matter. that is great that this was required. This is

in

Canada, eh? Does your school also require many hours in qi gong/tai ji and/or

massage?

 

[Guest guest]

, " " <@i...>

wrote:

Does your school also require many hours in qi gong/tai ji and/or

> massage?

 

 

answered my own question here:

 

http://www.acos.org/calendar/index.shtml#synop_tcm

 

looks like a good program on paper. did you like it?