Guest guest Posted July 26, 2003 Report Share Posted July 26, 2003 I think this will be interesting to many... Here are two diseases with the same pattern diagnosis. Notice the difference in herbs (Chinese source) : Cirrhosis of the liver: binding depression of liver qi : Mu xiang, qing pi, chen pi, gan cao, gui xin, chuan xiong, zhi ke, chuan pu, wu yao, xiang fu, cang zhu, tao ren Depression (classically defined) : binding depression of liver qi : Chai hu, bai shao, zhi ke, gan cao, xiang fu, yu jin, qing pi. Furthermore: Here is Cirrhosis of the liver, with enduring depression of liver yin - formula : Yiguanjian Sha shen, mai men dong, dang gui, sheng di, dan shen, chuan lian, jiao san xian, bie jia, sheng mu li Here is Depression (classically defined), with yin vacuity pattern - formula : Yiguanjian Bei sha shen, mai men dong, gui shen, sheng di, gou qi zi, chuan lian zi Again notice the difference in herbs… These are all from the same book, I find this instructive. Question : Do you think just giving yiguanjian to the cirrhosis patient is enough...? I don't think so... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Hi Jason and others, Currently, I have 2 patients I treat with both Acupuncture and Herbs for Cirrhosis. One patient I have been treating 1x/month for 2 years and have been using Health Concerns Hept 1 & Hept 2. This patients Alt/Ast continue to decline (which generally only tells if there is active inflammation)... could have normal Alt/Ast and have a very Cirrhotic liver. At her last check up with her MD, he was not to concerned at all, about her condition. Basically, told her to continue doing what she is doing. Second patient, has more of a complex presentation... brown discharge from the ears, bloody nose, veins crawling into the liver area on the tongue... and a liesurely pulse on the left, and slippery on the right... with a Xu in the kidney areas. Liesurely pulse could be due to the new meds her MD prescribed for Portal Hypertension, her blood work is all over the place. This patient is also entering menopause. So while there is definitely blood stasis in the liver, I need to protect her yin. I am using a specially formulated honey pill. The discharge in the ear is decreasing (was a greater amount every day, now is lesser amount, every other day) and the blood in the nose has ceased. So to answer your question, perhaps this formula you mention is good for some presentations. Although for my 2 cases I do not think it is enough. Teresa Question : Do you think just giving yiguanjian to the cirrhosis patient is enough...? I don't think so... I think - Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Dear T, Maybe my post was not clear… The whole point was that a strict yiguanjian is not enough for cirrhosis (yin vacuity pattern), and one must modify it for the disease and then the patient's presentation. The Chinese texts have extensively covered this topic, which until now I have not seen in English… This was not supposed to be an actual question, but a rhetorical one… If one checks out the below link (which may actually help you in those cases) one sees 15 patterns & 25 formulas + numerous modifications that can be applied to each formula, for cirrhosis.. I would suggest custom making an herb formula for these patients. But that is up to you... Good luck, Chinese Medicine/Articles_Pract/cirrhosis.htm - ChineseMedicineDoc.com , " Teresa Hall " <Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote: > > Hi Jason and others, > > Currently, I have 2 patients I treat with both Acupuncture and Herbs for > Cirrhosis. One patient I have been treating 1x/month for 2 years and have > been using Health Concerns Hept 1 & Hept 2. This patients Alt/Ast continue > to decline (which generally only tells if there is active inflammation)... > could have normal Alt/Ast and have a very Cirrhotic liver. At her last > check up with her MD, he was not to concerned at all, about her condition. > Basically, told her to continue doing what she is doing. > > Second patient, has more of a complex presentation... brown discharge from > the ears, bloody nose, veins crawling into the liver area on the tongue... > and a liesurely pulse on the left, and slippery on the right... with a Xu in > the kidney areas. Liesurely pulse could be due to the new meds her MD > prescribed for Portal Hypertension, her blood work is all over the place. > This patient is also entering menopause. So while there is definitely blood > stasis in the liver, I need to protect her yin. I am using a specially > formulated honey pill. The discharge in the ear is decreasing (was a > greater amount every day, now is lesser amount, every other day) and the > blood in the nose has ceased. > > So to answer your question, perhaps this formula you mention is good for > some presentations. Although for my 2 cases I do not think it is enough. > > Teresa > > Question : Do you think just giving yiguanjian to the cirrhosis > patient is enough...? I don't think so... > > > I think > > - > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Hi Jason, Thanks for the link! What a great consolidated reference chart for Cirrhosis. I find that complex cases are never *textbook*... there is always such a mixture of signs and symptoms! In my complex Cirrhosis patient there is certainly a mixed picture... With her I am defintely doing a personalized formula, she does not like to do a raw tea, however will religiously do the raw honey pills. For my patient I came up with the following: Bie Jia -- to dissipate nodules, and for her yin Ban Lan Gan -- to stop virus from replicating and to kill it, Decrease ALT Huang Qin -- to immprove cells immunity Shan Yao -- also to improve immunity by stregthening spleen Ren Shen -- to improve cell immunity Tao Ren, Dan Shen, Ma Huang, Mu Dan Pi to inhibit immune reaction ie activate Xue circulation to relive xue stasis Sheng di huang, Tao Ren, Di long, Da Huang -- remove immunity burdens or the virus that is attached to the cell Wu Wei Zi -- too improve liver function ie. Decrease ALT Tian jia Huang -- very common to lower ALT Huang Qi -- stop virus from replicating and to regulate protein metabolism He Shou Wu, Dan Shen -- Regulate protein metabolism, prevent fat deposit in Liver Chai hu -- resist or prevent heat in Liver, prevent fat deposit in Liver Mai men dong -- to nourish Lung yin Ban Xia -- transform nodules Hou Po -- aromatic to help in the transformation T - " " < Monday, July 28, 2003 7:18 AM Re: Disease diff Dear T, Maybe my post was not clear. The whole point was that a strict yiguanjian is not enough for cirrhosis (yin vacuity pattern), and one must modify it for the disease and then the patient's presentation. The Chinese texts have extensively covered this topic, which until now I have not seen in English. This was not supposed to be an actual question, but a rhetorical one. If one checks out the below link (which may actually help you in those cases) one sees 15 patterns & 25 formulas + numerous modifications that can be applied to each formula, for cirrhosis.. I would suggest custom making an herb formula for these patients. But that is up to you... Good luck, Chinese Medicine/Articles_Pract/cirrhosis.htm - ChineseMedicineDoc.com , " Teresa Hall " <Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote: > > Hi Jason and others, > > Currently, I have 2 patients I treat with both Acupuncture and Herbs for > Cirrhosis. One patient I have been treating 1x/month for 2 years and have > been using Health Concerns Hept 1 & Hept 2. This patients Alt/Ast continue > to decline (which generally only tells if there is active inflammation)... > could have normal Alt/Ast and have a very Cirrhotic liver. At her last > check up with her MD, he was not to concerned at all, about her condition. > Basically, told her to continue doing what she is doing. > > Second patient, has more of a complex presentation... brown discharge from > the ears, bloody nose, veins crawling into the liver area on the tongue... > and a liesurely pulse on the left, and slippery on the right... with a Xu in > the kidney areas. Liesurely pulse could be due to the new meds her MD > prescribed for Portal Hypertension, her blood work is all over the place. > This patient is also entering menopause. So while there is definitely blood > stasis in the liver, I need to protect her yin. I am using a specially > formulated honey pill. The discharge in the ear is decreasing (was a > greater amount every day, now is lesser amount, every other day) and the > blood in the nose has ceased. > > So to answer your question, perhaps this formula you mention is good for > some presentations. Although for my 2 cases I do not think it is enough. > > Teresa > > Question : Do you think just giving yiguanjian to the cirrhosis > patient is enough...? I don't think so... > > > I think > > - > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 , " Teresa Hall " <Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Thanks for the link! What a great consolidated reference chart for > Cirrhosis. I find that complex cases are never *textbook*... there is > always such a mixture of signs and symptoms! T, This is true, I don't think any case is *textbook* . The point of text books, as with the information I lead you too, is too understand the potential patterns and treatments. It is always up to the practitioner to figure out what % of presenting patterns makes up the complete picture. As far as the tx goes, such a `text' gives you guidelines/parameters so one can stay on track. Also the herbs that are common for a given disease (as well as patterns). Without staying true to some pattern(s), being clear on one's dx, one has the potential to get overwhelmed with the complexity of real life situations and start picking herbs for single functions with no regard to whole picture. I am sure you know all of this… anyway, I am curious what your patient's TCM dx is? - In my complex Cirrhosis > patient there is certainly a mixed picture... With her I am defintely doing > a personalized formula, she does not like to do a raw tea, however will > religiously do the raw honey pills. > > For my patient I came up with the following: > > Bie Jia -- to dissipate nodules, and for her yin > Ban Lan Gan -- to stop virus from replicating and to kill it, Decrease ALT > Huang Qin -- to immprove cells immunity > Shan Yao -- also to improve immunity by stregthening spleen > Ren Shen -- to improve cell immunity > Tao Ren, Dan Shen, Ma Huang, Mu Dan Pi to inhibit immune reaction ie > activate Xue circulation to relive xue stasis > Sheng di huang, Tao Ren, Di long, Da Huang -- remove immunity burdens or the > virus that is attached to the cell > Wu Wei Zi -- too improve liver function ie. Decrease ALT > Tian jia Huang -- very common to lower ALT > Huang Qi -- stop virus from replicating and to regulate protein metabolism > He Shou Wu, Dan Shen -- Regulate protein metabolism, prevent fat deposit in > Liver > Chai hu -- resist or prevent heat in Liver, prevent fat deposit in Liver > Mai men dong -- to nourish Lung yin > Ban Xia -- transform nodules > Hou Po -- aromatic to help in the transformation > > T > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Hi Jason, My working Dx. for this patient is: 1. Liver Blood Stasis - based on the veining into the liver area... have seen allot of Hept C tongues and this is the only one with veining right into the liver area, irregular and painful menses, severe menstrual cramps with dark blood and clots 2. Heat in the blood - blood in the nose, discharge from the ears, and there are dark blotches on the ankles and feet, ravenous appetite 3. General Qi Xu - weakness, lethargy, decreased motivation, dull thinking, limp hair, S.O.B., weak muscles, easily chilled frequent urination 4. Liver & Kidney Yin Xu - hot flashes, night sweats, and based on the pathology of Dx. I feel the Yin of the liver has been consumed 5. There is occassional swelling/ edema My Tx Principle: 1. To disperse and elliminate blood stasis to improve micro circulation in the capillaries to improve liver function 2. Clear heat in the blood to harmanize the blood 3. (+) generalized Qi Xu to improve daily function and increase the quality of life 4. (+) Liver & Kidney yin xu to reduce hot flashes and night sweats and to harmonize liver and kidney function 5. For swelling and edema I am utilizing acupuncture points primarily and also for Yu in the Ren Mai using Lu7/Kid 6 My abdominal Dx. is stagnation in the Ren Mai T <Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote: > Hi Jason, > > Thanks for the link! What a great consolidated reference chart for > Cirrhosis. I find that complex cases are never *textbook*... there is > always such a mixture of signs and symptoms! T, This is true, I don't think any case is *textbook* . The point of text books, as with the information I lead you too, is too understand the potential patterns and treatments. It is always up to the practitioner to figure out what % of presenting patterns makes up the complete picture. As far as the tx goes, such a `text' gives you guidelines/parameters so one can stay on track. Also the herbs that are common for a given disease (as well as patterns). Without staying true to some pattern(s), being clear on one's dx, one has the potential to get overwhelmed with the complexity of real life situations and start picking herbs for single functions with no regard to whole picture. I am sure you know all of this. anyway, I am curious what your patient's TCM dx is? - In my complex Cirrhosis > patient there is certainly a mixed picture... With her I am defintely doing > a personalized formula, she does not like to do a raw tea, however will > religiously do the raw honey pills. > > For my patient I came up with the following: > > Bie Jia -- to dissipate nodules, and for her yin > Ban Lan Gan -- to stop virus from replicating and to kill it, Decrease ALT > Huang Qin -- to immprove cells immunity > Shan Yao -- also to improve immunity by stregthening spleen > Ren Shen -- to improve cell immunity > Tao Ren, Dan Shen, Ma Huang, Mu Dan Pi to inhibit immune reaction ie > activate Xue circulation to relive xue stasis > Sheng di huang, Tao Ren, Di long, Da Huang -- remove immunity burdens or the > virus that is attached to the cell > Wu Wei Zi -- too improve liver function ie. Decrease ALT > Tian jia Huang -- very common to lower ALT > Huang Qi -- stop virus from replicating and to regulate protein metabolism > He Shou Wu, Dan Shen -- Regulate protein metabolism, prevent fat deposit in > Liver > Chai hu -- resist or prevent heat in Liver, prevent fat deposit in Liver > Mai men dong -- to nourish Lung yin > Ban Xia -- transform nodules > Hou Po -- aromatic to help in the transformation > > T > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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