how did you do it?

[Guest guest]

I was wondering how many longtime herbalists in this group learned

herbology by first memorizing single herbs for a year and only then

proceeding to formula study. After I learned the basic theory of TCM and

principles of chinese herbology and familiarized myself with the

categories of the materia medica (which took a few months), my natural

inclination has always been to study diseases, patterns, their associated

formulas and then the dynamics and properties of the herbs within those

formulas. And all of this should be continually grounded in the classical

theories and texts from which the ideas sprung. The fact is that we

really do not understand the herbs anyway until we learn formulas. I did

have a year of rote materia medica lectures, but their sole value was that

they forced me to memorize stuff for tests like temperature and pinyin

(which I am glad of, but we can still make people memorize stuff for tests

without consuming class time presenting ad nauseum data bits).

 

I have taught several herbs and formulas classes over the past 9 years,

but none more regularly and often as PCOM's Herbs 1 class. This class is

more of an intro to herbology and treatment strategies in which we

introduce representative herbs and formulas like si jun zi tang in every

category. However it is not a full discussion of either the entire

category or the selected formula and students are not quite ready for the

latter anyway. After having had this intro, perhaps instead of then doing

another 2 semesters of materia medica and another 3 of formulas, students

should instead be immersed in cases and formulas in the second semester.

I know there are others out there who also learned by a similar route as

myself. I have also noticed that the best herb students always begin to

study formulas from day one. So if this is the typical self motivated

approach, we should somehow incorporate that into the curriculum.

 

The obvious objection to this approach is that one learn many herbs " out

of order " . for example, if one studied ma huang tang and gui zhi tang,

one would learn about bai shao before blood tonics and xing ren before

stop cough. But I might counter that learning herbs in the context of

common treatment strategies is at least as effective a tool as comparing

and contrasting herbs within categories when it comes to long term

practical memorization. Ultimately one just has to learn the herbs, each

unto itself. In the meantime, its a matter of what sort of

contextualization will actually best facilitate this. In addition, the

nature of this type of study would still allow for ample compare and

contrasting within given categories. You might learn bai shao first as a

ying and wei harmonizer paired with gui zhi, but eventually you will hear

about it again as a blood tonic in si wu tang, where it can be compared ot

dang gui, etc. However comparing bai shao to gui zhi or da zao is also

useful. The question to me is only outcomes. Best outcomes are generated

by maintaining interest and motivation. Focusing the student on problems

to be solved does both of these things. The trick is also maintaining

enough structure to insure that the data is revealed in the solutions to

the problems.

 

 

Chinese Herbs

 

 

" Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

Dear Todd and Laurie,

 

Also, experience i.e. reading and actual doing (I miss comments from

Rey...); blue poppy web site is excellent for reading about crude drugs in

action...

 

BUT, a underrepresentive way is probably one which Emuanel often promulgates

via his teacher from Taiwan Nam Singh...

 

Use the herbs in cooking and ye shall be set free...

 

Marco (in Guatemala)

 

 

-

" Laurie " <tgperez

" CHA "

Sunday, July 27, 2003 5:20 PM

Re: how did you do it?

 

 

> wrote:

>

> > After I learned the basic theory of TCM and

> > principles of chinese herbology and familiarized myself with the

> > categories of the materia medica (which took a few months), my natural

> > inclination has always been to study diseases, patterns, their

associated

> > formulas and then the dynamics and properties of the herbs within those

> > formulas.

> >

>

> Well, I'm not a " longtime herbalist " but here's what my experience has

> been:

>

> My strategy in single herbs classes was a little different from my

> peers. Sure, I slogged through the necessary memorizing to survive the

> tests. But beyond that, I looked up each new herb in Sionneau's Dui Yao

> whenever possible (thank you, Bob Damone for recommending that text in

> Herbs 1 !). I also checked the index of treatment oriented books like

> Practical Therapeutics, found listings for a single herb, then made note

> of the different types of formulas, modifications and conditions it was

> associated with. Even though I didn't understand everything upfront,

> this approach made the material more fluid. By the time I started

> taking formulas classes, I was somewhat familiar with the concepts and

> compositions.

>

> As for preventing intro ennui... I'm not sure it's an achievable goal.

> If I remember correctly, Bob Damone told us on day one that Herbs 1 was

> going to be a laborious class; he made no apologies. He also assured us

> it would be worth it in the end. I believed him and I was motivated by

> his enthusiasm. I did the work. An athlete has to put in countless

> hours of very unexciting, body-breaking, repetitive exercise before she

> can even hope to achieve the athletic form of a pro. Academia's not so

> different; it's just intellectual muscles instead of body braun.

> Believe in the material and tell the yawners to get with the program.

>

> Ahh, seeing the graduation horizon....

> Laurie Burton

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

> After I learned the basic theory of TCM and

> principles of chinese herbology and familiarized myself with the

> categories of the materia medica (which took a few months), my natural

> inclination has always been to study diseases, patterns, their associated

> formulas and then the dynamics and properties of the herbs within those

> formulas.

>

 

Well, I'm not a " longtime herbalist " but here's what my experience has

been:

 

My strategy in single herbs classes was a little different from my

peers. Sure, I slogged through the necessary memorizing to survive the

tests. But beyond that, I looked up each new herb in Sionneau's Dui Yao

whenever possible (thank you, Bob Damone for recommending that text in

Herbs 1 !). I also checked the index of treatment oriented books like

Practical Therapeutics, found listings for a single herb, then made note

of the different types of formulas, modifications and conditions it was

associated with. Even though I didn't understand everything upfront,

this approach made the material more fluid. By the time I started

taking formulas classes, I was somewhat familiar with the concepts and

compositions.

 

As for preventing intro ennui... I'm not sure it's an achievable goal.

If I remember correctly, Bob Damone told us on day one that Herbs 1 was

going to be a laborious class; he made no apologies. He also assured us

it would be worth it in the end. I believed him and I was motivated by

his enthusiasm. I did the work. An athlete has to put in countless

hours of very unexciting, body-breaking, repetitive exercise before she

can even hope to achieve the athletic form of a pro. Academia's not so

different; it's just intellectual muscles instead of body braun.

Believe in the material and tell the yawners to get with the program.

 

Ahh, seeing the graduation horizon....

Laurie Burton

[Guest guest]

 

 

Interesting question, and I think it is a good one which deserves to

be asked. I mostly taught myself through a number of what we would now

call distance learning programs available in the late 70s (e.g., Henry

Lu, Sung Baek, another one from Portland [i believe a Dr. Liu],

Subhuti's stuff, Hong-yen Hsu's stuff, the early materials from

ACTCM). Although I " studied " individual medicinals several times, I

never really forced myself to memorize them. I eventually learned them

through using them in practice and looking them up over and over

again. Because of my Tibetan Buddhist practice (i.e., complex

visualizations), I have an eidetic memory. That's certainly helped a

lot.

 

Like many people back then, I started with Chinese patient medicines,

later went on to prescribe desiccated extracts, and then eventually

put in a bulk pharmacy. Later, in 1986, I went to China specifically

to study formula prescription. By that time, I did know the functions

and indications of at least 300-400 herbs and was familar with 100 or

so formulas.

 

Bob

 

, <@i...>

wrote:

> I was wondering how many longtime herbalists in this group learned

> herbology by first memorizing single herbs for a year and only then

> proceeding to formula study. After I learned the basic theory of

TCM and

> principles of chinese herbology and familiarized myself with the

> categories of the materia medica (which took a few months), my

natural

> inclination has always been to study diseases, patterns, their

associated

> formulas and then the dynamics and properties of the herbs within

those

> formulas. And all of this should be continually grounded in the

classical

> theories and texts from which the ideas sprung. The fact is that we

> really do not understand the herbs anyway until we learn formulas.

I did

> have a year of rote materia medica lectures, but their sole value

was that

> they forced me to memorize stuff for tests like temperature and

pinyin

> (which I am glad of, but we can still make people memorize stuff for

tests

> without consuming class time presenting ad nauseum data bits).

>

> I have taught several herbs and formulas classes over the past 9

years,

> but none more regularly and often as PCOM's Herbs 1 class. This

class is

> more of an intro to herbology and treatment strategies in which we

> introduce representative herbs and formulas like si jun zi tang in

every

> category. However it is not a full discussion of either the entire

> category or the selected formula and students are not quite ready

for the

> latter anyway. After having had this intro, perhaps instead of then

doing

> another 2 semesters of materia medica and another 3 of formulas,

students

> should instead be immersed in cases and formulas in the second

semester.

> I know there are others out there who also learned by a similar

route as

> myself. I have also noticed that the best herb students always

begin to

> study formulas from day one. So if this is the typical self

motivated

> approach, we should somehow incorporate that into the curriculum.

>

> The obvious objection to this approach is that one learn many herbs

" out

> of order " . for example, if one studied ma huang tang and gui zhi

tang,

> one would learn about bai shao before blood tonics and xing ren

before

> stop cough. But I might counter that learning herbs in the context

of

> common treatment strategies is at least as effective a tool as

comparing

> and contrasting herbs within categories when it comes to long term

> practical memorization. Ultimately one just has to learn the herbs,

each

> unto itself. In the meantime, its a matter of what sort of

> contextualization will actually best facilitate this. In addition,

the

> nature of this type of study would still allow for ample compare and

> contrasting within given categories. You might learn bai shao first

as a

> ying and wei harmonizer paired with gui zhi, but eventually you will

hear

> about it again as a blood tonic in si wu tang, where it can be

compared ot

> dang gui, etc. However comparing bai shao to gui zhi or da zao is

also

> useful. The question to me is only outcomes. Best outcomes are

generated

> by maintaining interest and motivation. Focusing the student on

problems

> to be solved does both of these things. The trick is also

maintaining

> enough structure to insure that the data is revealed in the

solutions to

> the problems.

>

>

> Chinese Herbs

>

> voice:

> fax:

>

> " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre

> minds " -- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

> , wrote:

> > I was wondering how many longtime herbalists in this group

learned herbology by first memorizing single herbs for a year and

only then proceeding to formula study. >>>

 

 

We studied individual herbs first; then went on to how simple

combinations of 2-5 herbs work. Later, we went on to study formulas

and their modifications, organized by general yin/yang patterns and

function catagories. Even today, when I look at an herbal formula, I

think about how the simple combinations work within the formula.

 

Unfortunately, we used Korean names for the herbs and formulas--and

my teacher's idiosyncratic spellings of those Korean terms--so we

had to relearn them.

 

One day, when I saw my teacher in a Chinese bookstore picking out

books he said, " I bet you wish you knew what these said. " So I

started buying Chinese herbal and acupuncture books even though I

couldn't yet read any characters. Then, I started to teach myself to

read some of the Chinese characters; and bought several hundred more

books.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, Laurie <tgperez@e...> wrote:

 

An athlete has to put in countless

> hours of very unexciting, body-breaking, repetitive exercise before she

> can even hope to achieve the athletic form of a pro. Academia's not so

> different; it's just intellectual muscles instead of body braun.

 

Of course I agree about the commitment and discipline necessary. and I have

often wondered about why its my job to motivate people who should already

be motivated by their chosen field. I guess because its my job. someone said

to me once that there is no such thing as talent, just interest and practice. I

am not sure I totally believe that. Someone else said something similar about

achievement being 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Its the interest and

inspiration that drive me right now. While I wish people were just naturally

inspired with a love of herbs, people come from all backgrounds. They are

here to learn how to help and I think a different method of teaching could

demand the same level of discipline and memorization, but somehow make it a

bit more inspiring. I am just batting around ideas and not criticizing anyone.

This is really a self-indictment as much as anything else.

 

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

> someone said

> to me once that there is no such thing as talent, just interest and practice.

>

 

Oh, no, I definitely disagree. Talent exists. 198 riders started in

the Tour de France three weeks ago; 147 finished yesterday and only one

man won. Talent's a factor. And wanting is also a factor. There will

always be those who excel in their field and make it look easy in the

process.

 

The question is: do you, the prof, have to make coursework " more

inspiring " for the students. My opinion: you have to be inspired

yourself. When your passion for the subject filters through everything

you do it will inspire those ready to be inspired. Perhaps herbs aren't

for every student. That's ok, too. Your " job " is to present the

material, spark the questions, and challenge your students' knowledge.

Your job is also to stay inspired yourself, which means moving around in

the curriculum when teaching a specific class becomes old-hat or

draining.

 

By the way, I don't recall hearing your Herbs 1 students complain of

boredom - exam angst, perhaps, but not boredom :> Also, your Internal

Med class had people lining up to get in - why? Because you were

inspired and that inspired them....

 

Sorry, I guess I'm just not patient with people who succumb to boredom.

Fatigue, weariness, confusion, even a little insanity I can accept, but

not boredom.

 

Cheers,

Laurie Burton

[Guest guest]

Laurie,

 

Maybe you should spend more time

looking at Andy Warhol's work.

It'll make you love boredom.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hi Marco,

 

The herbs that I cook with every day plus the ones I work with in formulas are old friends. Working with growers for years now makes me aware of herbs as part of a landscape and even as part of village or regional culture. Jiao Gu Lan that recently got so many posts is a normal part of Shaanxi landscape. Dang gui is so common in Gansu Province that every little child knows it. Students have three years of TCM school to actually use the herbs in their own daily life. I only see a very few do this. You're right, Marco. Nam expects his students to use herbs in their cooking and then also use herbs individually or as formulas for self care under his guidance.

 

I'm thinking that somewhere in Japan is an institute for the studies of the exotic American junk-food. I rented a room once to a young Japanese woman undergraduate student whom I was attempting to direct to a nearby store to buy Japanese food. She stopped me in mid-sentence saying that she did not eat Japanese food. She said, "I eat junk food" ... emphasizing and exalting the words junk food as if it was a haute cuisine. Thus, our special paradigm of fun and non-fitness is a mandate for some people's attention. I re-directed my Japanese tenant to Safeway with my blessings.

 

Anyway, I've learned from so many native Chinese that herbs were a fundamental part of their day to day lives during upbringing and are still a big part of their landscape and the lives of their families back home. My wife's sister grows many herbs in her yard, and when I visited her several years ago in southern Taiwan, she cooked with them and even made blender smoothies with some of them. Pretty tasty stuff ... and free, since she saves the seeds and reseeds her garden. My wife's childhood is filled with stories of Chinese herbal treatments and the profound exploits of tui na masters. Nam Singh grew up in a Taoist temple from childhood and is the grandson of a CM practitioner. Thus, he has many such stories as well.

 

Marco, I truly believe as a person who loves cooking, that Americans are alienated as a culture from cooking and, in a sense, real food. Thus, I can understand in that regard why people have a hard time to learn what could be in their hands every day if they just spent time in their kitchens. Instead they look at the hen scratchings inside of books. Go figure! I'm with you.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Marco

Sunday, July 27, 2003 2:59 PM

Re: Re: how did you do it?

Dear Todd and Laurie,Also, experience i.e. reading and actual doing (I miss comments fromRey...); blue poppy web site is excellent for reading about crude drugs inaction...BUT, a underrepresentive way is probably one which Emuanel often promulgatesvia his teacher from Taiwan Nam Singh...Use the herbs in cooking and ye shall be set free...Marco (in Guatemala)-"Laurie" <tgperez"CHA" Sunday, July 27, 2003 5:20 PM Re: how did you do it?> wrote:>> > After I learned the basic theory of TCM and> > principles of chinese herbology and familiarized myself with the> > categories of the materia medica (which took a few months), my natural> > inclination has always been to study diseases, patterns, theirassociated> > formulas and then the dynamics and properties of the herbs within those> > formulas.> >>> Well, I'm not a "longtime herbalist" but here's what my experience has> been:>> My strategy in single herbs classes was a little different from my> peers. Sure, I slogged through the necessary memorizing to survive the> tests. But beyond that, I looked up each new herb in Sionneau's Dui Yao> whenever possible (thank you, Bob Damone for recommending that text in> Herbs 1 !). I also checked the index of treatment oriented books like> Practical Therapeutics, found listings for a single herb, then made note> of the different types of formulas, modifications and conditions it was> associated with. Even though I didn't understand everything upfront,> this approach made the material more fluid. By the time I started> taking formulas classes, I was somewhat familiar with the concepts and> compositions.>> As for preventing intro ennui... I'm not sure it's an achievable goal.> If I remember correctly, Bob Damone told us on day one that Herbs 1 was> going to be a laborious class; he made no apologies. He also assured us> it would be worth it in the end. I believed him and I was motivated by> his enthusiasm. I did the work. An athlete has to put in countless> hours of very unexciting, body-breaking, repetitive exercise before she> can even hope to achieve the athletic form of a pro. Academia's not so> different; it's just intellectual muscles instead of body braun.> Believe in the material and tell the yawners to get with the program.>> Ahh, seeing the graduation horizon....> Laurie Burton>>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcarepractitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializingin Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,including board approved online continuing education.>> http://www..org>>

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen " <

susegmen@i...> wrote:

Thus, I can understand in that regard why people have a hard time to learn

what could be in their hands every day if they just spent time in their

kitchens. Instead they look at the hen scratchings inside of books. Go figure!

I'm with you.

>

 

While I am a strong advocate of well made medicinal products, I actually use

raw herbs almost exclusively in my practice these days and have made regular

use of them for almost 20 years now, including my forays into western

herbalism in the early eighties. I also cannot overestimate the value of

contantly handling, smelling, tasting the raw herbs and their various extracts.

Nothing gives you a profounder sense of evil qi than taking a large dose of the

wrong herb. If you take gan jiang when you are already hot, you understand

evil heat. On the other hand, how can you diminish the so-called " hen's

scratchings " ?

 

The main value of chinese medicine to me is that it has transmitted its

medicine using the written word so we may share in the trials and errors of

thousands of physicians over thousands of years. One could never recreate in

one's single lifetime all the experiences necessary to understand the entire

materia medica in this way. So I try not to elevate experience over the

written word unless I can corroborate and create consensus within the

professional or scholarly community. Otherwise, it is pretty much anything

goes. If I think the herb does so and so, then I can use it any way I please on

my patients even if my experience totally contradicts tradition. I doubt this

is

what Emmanuel meant, but this is how I fear it might be interpreted.

 

I believe students should be guided by books that reflect consensus and living

teachers who have studied and practiced the traditions. For me to accept that

that personal experiences of the herbs are the best guide to practice would

only be possible if I also accepted that all studying the medicine were also

highly refined qi gong masters. I strongly recommend students to

experimentation with herbs, but I remain wary of catering in any way to an

already rampant anti-intellectualism in our field. Again I know this is not

Emmanuel's intent, but many of you know that the problem in our field is

certainly not that we have too many bookish types and not enough touchy-

feely, garden loving, food cooking homebodies. We have plenty of the latter,

especially in Oregon (and the fact that I lived there for 13 years should tell

you this also is not meant derrogatorily - I'd love to live that life again

someday). But for now I must prefer that students learn their hen's scratching

and supplement what they read with practical experience, but not to

substitute personal experience for tradition, at least until one has substantial

experience in a matter.

 

[Guest guest]

 

, "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmen@i...> wrote:Thus, I can understand in that regard why people have a hard time to learn what could be in their hands every day if they just spent time in their kitchens. Instead they look at the hen scratchings inside of books. Go figure! I'm with you. > While I am a strong advocate of well made medicinal products, I actually use raw herbs almost exclusively in my practice these days and have made regular use of them for almost 20 years now, including my forays into western herbalism in the early eighties. I also cannot overestimate the value of contantly handling, smelling, tasting the raw herbs and their various extracts. Nothing gives you a profounder sense of evil qi than taking a large dose of the wrong herb. If you take gan jiang when you are already hot, you understand evil heat. On the other hand, how can you diminish the so-called "hen's scratchings"?

 

You took me too seriously. I, for one, was continuously in undergraduate school and graduate school from 1981 to 1992 except for the spring/summer of 1988. That's a lot of hen scratchings. A lot of students that I know have their heads in their books so much that they don't see things work much less how they work ... and then complain that they don't see it. I don't just mean CM students either. My own students discount lab and hang on my words during lecture. A lot of CM is experiential just like a lot of anatomy and physiology. I don't mean to diminish the book work, but I do mean to push people into the experiential realm. It actually makes the book work so much easier as well as so much more enlightening. This is especially so when people come to me and complain about having to memorize so much nomenclature. I tell them they've got a zygomatic bone right there. The radius is right there proximal to you thumb. If you can't find it on yourself, then grab your kids, wife, husband or even your dog. No, no ... I don't mean to diminish by any means studying your books. There is simply much to be said for physically having fun and fulfillment with the human or the herbal anatomy and physiology.

 

Emmanuel Segmen