Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Regarding recent posts decrying the fall of acupuncture from the lofty ranks of internal medicine in China. It seems to me that there is much more than we might think based on published material in English. Most "front line" doctors here in Beijing who see up to 100 patients per day (believe it or not) are treating everything that comes their way. There are plenty of people here who don't think twice about seeing an acupuncturist for what we might call "internal medicine". I for one am working in a private clinic where only about 10% of the patients are taking herbs. I'm seeing quite surprising results with conditions my US training would have put solidly in the herbal (or pharmaceutical) category. I'm sure that some on the list won't be surprised to hear that the key is very careful diagnosis. It seems that acupuncture/meridian therapy has suffered in China as a result of squeezing point functions into the same zang/fu categories as our herbal training. Of course, there are quite lively classical traditions alive and well here. I know many of you have heard this all before but I'm stunned by how much TCM leaves out regarding classical meridian study. This is the original energetic medicine that got many of us in the field in the first place. Another thought: Haven't we all wondered why all the herbs have certain channels to which they "home"? I'm interested in any thoughts in that direction. respectfully, Jason R.Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China home-86-010-8405-0531cell- 86-010-13520155800 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Jason, Thanks for the post. I'd been wanting to point out that acupuncture is alive and well. > > Another thought: Haven't we all wondered why all the herbs have certain channels to which they " home " ? I'm interested in any thoughts in that direction. We've had some discussions on this list in the past on this topic, and I'd like to suggest that to get things going, you might want to provide us all with at least an overview of what the Chinese terms are all about. That will provide some sort of foundation on which others' thoughts can proceed, in whatever direction they might be led. Is that too much to ask of a nice young man from Louisville, KY...the greatest city on earth? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 , Jason Robertson <kentuckyginseng> wrote: > Regarding recent posts decrying the fall of acupuncture from the lofty ranks of internal medicine in China. It seems to me that there is much more than we might think based on published material in English. Most " front line " doctors here in Beijing who see up to 100 patients per day (believe it or not) are treating everything that comes their way. There are plenty of people here who don't think twice about seeing an acupuncturist for what we might call " internal medicine " . Jason, I would like to hear more about the clinic you are working in, i.e. what do you define as 'front line'. Although I acknowledge that acupuncture is alive and well in China, I still believe that the majority of internal complaints are treated with herbs. (Especially in the hospitals.) There are always going to be acu clinics as well as strictly moxa clinics, as well as qi gong hospitals. And if one works in a moxa clinic, one might believe that everything is treated with moxa. My assumptions about acu's role is mainly from Chinese docs that I have spoke with that have worked in the major hospitals. (but most of them are herbalist)… but it is encouraging to see people getting good results from just acu. Could you elaborate on some of the acu results you are seeing, especially if any of them are reproducible here in the western world (i.e. freq of treatments, harshness of therapies etc.)… Thanx, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 , Jason Robertson <kentuckyginseng> wrote: > > It seems that acupuncture/meridian therapy has suffered in China as a result of squeezing point functions into the same zang/fu categories as our herbal training. Of course, there are quite lively classical traditions alive and well here. I know many of you have heard this all before but I'm stunned by how much TCM leaves out regarding classical meridian study. This is the original energetic medicine that got many of us in the field in the first place. I too am perplexed my this, and have been searching for a good answer. One thing I currently believe is that acu took a much bigger hit vs. herbal medicine in the TCM reform. Just looking through point indications in the various translated texts, one sees; good for hypertension, migraine, etc etc.. very western, and many times without even a pattern dx. It seems herbs still has a solid link to the classics. Within `TCM' one can find classical rxs within the pattern differentiations. With classical explanations... It seems like the integration has just suited herbs better… Maybe the channels theory is just dieing out, maybe people think it is not relevant, kind of like herbal channels. This makes sense to me… - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 > > Another thought: Haven't we all wondered why all the herbs have certain channels to which they " home " ? I'm interested in any thoughts in that direction. > Are you referring to `guides' or `leads'? I always thought that there were definitely a few herbs that were medicine horsies to various organs/ channels, but the vast majority of herbs did not `home' or were `guides' to any one channel. (If I am understanding you correctly). I.e. Jie geng to the lung.. This is common. But were does guizhi go? A few weeks ago someone said they thought guizhi was a guide to the heart. I would have to disagree, due to its use in rxs that do not go to the heart… In wulingsan it is working on the bladder, one of the reasons that I think it is said to work on the bladder. I really think that most herb's channel attributes are murky, and really just some reflection of the organ(s) that they operate on within given formulas contexts. I.e. in many situations guizhi will go to the heart, but not always. AS Bensky says guizhi `tong yang' – This is its function (opens the free flow of yang) that is it.. Where ever the other herbs take it (meaning the context) is where it will tong yang. So, IMO, it would be misleading to throw guizhi into a Rx thinking it will go to heart channel and open the yang qi of chest, without fully taking into consideration the other herbs. And then you wonder why an herb that is clearly working on the stomach, does not enter the stomach ch… (or maybe that is just in that given book)… There is so much controversy that as a whole the topic seems hard to apply to the clinic… AS has been pointed out, IMO, I think it is a good learning tool, as are memorizing the functions, but this does not represent any 'truth' or clinical reality, well maybe a little... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 To address the idea of channels to which herbs are said to "home". The Chinese term gui (1) jing (1) is translated by Wiseman as "channel entry" and most often is memorized by herbal students as "what channel does the herb go to". The term gui (1) most often connotes a meaning of going back/ returning or coming together. It is part of a very common Chinese saying, "man (3) zai (4) er (2) gui (1)" which means to "come back with fruitful results". The saying is often invoked optimistically by foreign students when describing their eventual return to the shores of home, loaded with valuable information or skills. The term "jing" is commonly known by most of us as "channel" or "meridian". Andy Ellis always said that herbs "home" to particular channels and so, after further reflection, it seems as good a way as any to convey the original Chinese meaning. So, I was just wondering out loud to all of you there (thanks Jason for the ideas) about what this might mean. I'm working in a clinic in Beijing called the Ping Xin Tang. It's a private clinic staffed by retired doctors- mostly herbalists. The staff includes many retired professors from the Beijing TCM Univ. or various TCM hospitals in the area. So, to answer Jason B's question, these are retired doctors from the "front lines"; i.e. the doctors who previously saw tens of patients per day in the public health care system. The clinic is the closest that I've seen in China to what we do in the US. All patients pay out of pocket to see doctors that they've heard about through word of mouth. Treatments are pricey by Chinese standards at appx. $10-20/ treatment. Herbs are decocted from a full pharmacy on the premises and packaged into daily doses in little sealed plastic bags. I work most closely with Dr. Wang Ju Yi who is the only acupuncturist on a staff that includes appx. 20 doctors. Many of the herbalists send him patients and vice versa. He himself will write formulas when he deems necessary but 9 times out of 10 he only uses acupuncture. He has been successfully treating things like eczema, ADD, benign prostatic hypertrophy, a myriad of digestive complaints, tinnitus, immune deficiency, asthma, allergies, insomnia, menopause syndrome, developmental issues in children and palpitations using only acupuncture. By the way, most patients aren't using western medications either. I have an interesting case study using only acupuncture to treat eczema, for example, that I'd be happy to post on Jason B's website. So, to get down to answering Jason's question about the use of acupuncture for internal medicine. What I'm seeing here is the survival of actual Chinese style meridian acupuncture in which consideration of changes in the jing luo is a vital part of diagnosis. The end result of all of this is that treatments can be constructed which attempt to modify the qi hua (4), qi dynamic or "Chinese physiology" of the patient. The details of this system are much, much too long to subject any of you to in this forum. I can say with some confidence that if we all go back to the "6 channels" (Tai Yang, Yang Ming, Shao Yang etc.) and consider each as an energetic entity of its own, working in layers similar to those discussed in the Shang Han Lun, that we can develop a frame of reference that can be just as subtle as developing herbal decoctions. In the Ping Xin Tang clinic, even such luminous names as Jiao Shu De, occasionally send Dr. Wang patients who aren't responding to herbs. Sometimes herbs are "stronger" than acupuncture and sometimes not. Thanks to anyone who actually took the time to read this far respectfully, Jason R. Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China home-86-010-8405-0531cell- 86-010-13520155800 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Jason.R. Could you tell a little more about this acupuncture system. I understand that this is herbal page,but can you refer me to some sources of this method,so we do not take time here at herbal.Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Please elaborate on list or make me part of the thread:-) Marco Ps. Jason R. have you read (or anyone?): Selected Annotations to the Corresponding Acupoints applied to cases in Shang han Lun - Shanghan Lun Zhenjui Piexue Xuanzhu I think its only in Chinese. Can you translate it Please?;-) Would it be possible to put something up on 's web site (whic is very good if one may say so)and or get something published in journal? although I am not yet able to I think there would be a lot of people keen on knowing more... BTW, in Yang Shou-zhong and Charles Chase translation of The systematic classic of Acupuncture and Moxibustion by Huang Fu Mi. Is there some material related to what you mention about the professor using nearly exclusively acumoxa in that precious book? - limon1111 Tuesday, August 05, 2003 10:24 AM Re: Re: acupuncture in Beijing Jason.R. Could you tell a little more about this acupuncture system. I understand that this is herbal page,but can you refer me to some sources of this method,so we do not take time here at herbal.Thank you. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 The approach that Dr. Wang represents is, to me, the link between "meridian theory" and the zang-fu theory that many of us have studied extensively. Simply put, here's the question that I'm trying to figure out here: How can we talk about zang-fu/organ systems and acupuncture in a way that doesn't reduce acupuncture to simple "point prescriptions" akin to herbal formulas where the functions of individual points are put together to create what looks like zang-fu theory herb formulas. OK, I know this is an herb group but I believe that the question affects us all as herbalists/acupuncturists. In my humble opinion (shaped by experience here), the key is reclaiming the complex art of Qi dynamic in the meridians; i.e. how can we look back at the albeit confusing internal pathways etc. of the meridians and see a system at work that is actually complementary to but separate from zang-fu theory? A good starting point for those interested is John Pirog's book, "Meridian Style Acupuncture". There will be more on those lines in the future. respectfully, JDR Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China home-86-010-8405-0531cell- 86-010-13520155800 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Thank you for the reply.I tried to find "Meridian Style Acupuncture",but no result.Could it be some different title? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 , limon1111@a... wrote: > Thank you for the reply.I tried to find " Meridian Style Acupuncture " ,but no > result.Could it be some different title? The Practical Application of Meridian Style Acupuncture by John E. Pirog Pacific View Press December 1996 ISBN: 1881896137 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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