Guest guest Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Emmanuel, > > Indeed, the quote was Chapter 26. My error. Now that I'm reviewing Chapter 22 I'm caught by the commentary of Wu Ch'eng regarding the first verse. Your personal summary and interpretation below at the end is exquisite. Thank you. I only know that because I'm currently learning to write the darn text of the Dao De Jing from memory. I was talking with a calligraphy teacher the other day about the character of the practice of writing Chinese characters with a brush, and he pointed out that it is a kind of gong fu...qi gong, if you will. It was a poignant bit of counterpoint to the recent discussions here about self-cultivation. Whether or not walking one's dog or playing the electric violin are forms of self-cultivation has approximately nothing to do with the point I was getting at with respect to the impact on one's study and understanding...let alone practice of the theory and methods of Chinese medicine. But it has more than dawned on me that every hand that has ever written every character of what constitutes the knowledge base of the subject has been trained to function in a certain way, according to a complex set of rules and principles that lie precisely on the boundary between thought and language. This line of demarcation forms a critical thread for those who seek to stitch together a fabric of understanding of this subject. And when we talk about upgrading the education in the subject, we most definitely need to take such considerations to heart. All the while that I was compiling the materials for Who Can Ride the Dragon? I called the book, somewhat prosaically, The Cultural Substrate of Traditional . An agent who looked at it in an early version convinced me that this title would never, never, never fly. And that is probably true. But it does convey one important fact: the material that constitutes the substrate of the subject is hard for non-Chinese to see, let alone understand. Do we need to know the substrate in order to study and practice the subject? Well, do you need to know the ground that you're standing on if you plan to build a bridge or a building? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Which will help my needling more? Practicing taiji or practicing needling? Which will help me roll moxa better? Practicing Baduanjin or rolling moxa? Which will help me write better prescriptions? Studying Zhuangzi or studying prescriptions? When my Japanese needing teachers told me the secret of their seemingly otherworldly skill was " Renshu renshu renshu " ( " Practice practice practice " ) they weren't talking about anything other than the task at hand. (standard CHA devil's advocate disclaimer goes here...) robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Robert, I guess that all depends on where you want to go and what you want to do and who you want to be. Personally, I've never experienced any slightest conflict or even competition for my time between the kinds of activities that you describe. I'm a firm believer in what Musashi described in the Book of Five Rings as: The way is in training. It wasn't until I started discussing the matter with folks right here at CHA that I was introduced to the peculiar notion that knowing what you're doing and doing it are two, not only different, but conflicting things. Amazing. Truly amazing. So amazing that I think it's high time we really ask ourselves, where does this apparent conflict come from. Have you ever once heard me...or anyone for that matter suggest that one put aside one's needles and moxa and devote oneself entirely to the reading of old books? I've never heard anyone state this. I only hear people who, for reasons which I have to believe are either not well understood by themselves or that they wish to keep secret, argue from the point of view that having access to literature somehow blocks one from proper training. Absurd! Why on earth would anyone want to suggest that there is a conflict? Time? Is it all about time? Well, here's what Andrew Marvel suggested we do about this thorny little problem. " Thus though we cannot make the sun stand still yet we shall make him run. " More poetry. That's what we need, amigo. More damn poetry. Juegas todos los dias con la luz d'el universo. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Robert was is your experience with the stickon moxa cones? Are as good as direct moxa Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 In i think it was Wakariyasui Keiraku Chiryo, Fukushima Kodo wrote an agonzing passage which went something like " o the dilemma! if you're needling you're not studying, if you're studying you're not needling " . > > Have you ever once heard me...or anyone > for that matter suggest that one put > aside one's needles and moxa and devote > oneself entirely to the reading of old > books? 10 minutes of reading Zhuangzi = 10 min less of reading Zhu Danzxi. > > I only hear people who, for reasons which > I have to believe are either not well > understood by themselves or that they > wish to keep secret, argue from the > point of view that having access to > literature somehow blocks one from > proper training. > Ah, but what literature? I can read acupucture manuals in Japanese but I can't read Asahi Shinbun or any other daily paper. No argument that reading Shanghanlun in Chinese is applicable to the clinic, is learning enough Chinese to read the Legalists really necessary? Or is it more productive use of a clinician's time to depart from needling to read Medscape? I'm just asking. I've been thinking more about this cultivation issue. I have some personal purely subjective anecdotal samsara-based hairy-barbarian experience on this idea about chinese classical cultivation giving one some sort of edge in learning / practicing Chinese medicine, for which i'll probably get flamed but lo que sea. Bear in mind i am a lost soul who practices NO purely chinese form of cultivation. I however have had many students who have had long-term Cultivation (i'll capitalize it to keep it distict from the hairy-barbarian walking the dog cultivation) practices. In my experience as an instructor in TCM whose paltry understanding of the principles of Chinese medicine has been praised (no doubt through pity) by real PRC- trained Chinese doctors, my observation is that those students who come with even decades of Chinese Cultivation practices are no more likely to do well in their studies than those who come from backgrounds with no prior (or current) Chinese Cultivation experience. In fact, some of them come equipped with the most bizarre notions of TCM which they have acquired over the years and from which they are loath to depart because their " teacher said so " thus it must be true and i as a mere lackey of " the schools " or the reds or whomever must be mistaken. Having said that, i have always argued for curriculum inclusion of at the very least terminology study and at most CM Chinese because i believe that this is very necessary to ongoing development in the profession. As to Cultivation and Culture, i don't think it would hurt as long as it didn't take time away from the stuff students need to go out into practice. Would studying the Cultural substrate help? Perhaps, but i'm seeing students graduate only knowing one or two formulae (Ba Zhen Tang, Xiao Yao San, take your pick). IMHO they need to study more prescriptions and less poetry. no se pare la rumba, robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Robert was is your experience with the stickon moxa cones? Are as good as direct moxa > Alon In my opinion, no, i don't advocate the use of stick-on moxa. If you're going to use them stick with the Japanese brands (Chosei-kyu, Kamaya Mini etc) as they are less likely to cause burns (frequently blistering) than the Korean brands, which are quite hot. Direct moxibustion is not that dfficult to learn to apply and one can control the amount of heat, rate of burn, etc by the grade of moxa, how tightly one rolls it, plus manual techniques while it is burning, thus one can fine-tune the stimulation for different points, patients, skin types, etc. The biggest problem in appying direct moxa is that no liability insurance will cover it. This is a matter of ignorance rather than safety IMHO. I have seen nasty scars from moxa poles which would never happen with direct thread moxa. For beginners and/or in states where DM is prohibited (such as Wisconsin) I teach the use of kyutenshi (moxa shields) which is a stick-on foil-lined paper shield which is thin enough to use with tiny moxa but is technically a barrier so the method can no longer be considered direct. In truth i always use shiunko ointment so whether it is actually " direct " is debatable anyway. robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Robert, Well, let's see if we can suss out the gist of the apparent conflict. What did the old Japanese dude say about how to resolve the conflict? And why do you care? Your remarks about dog walking and barbarians utterly miss the point I've made. But they're darn cute. The point is that if you want to understand what the Chinese were saying, it's a good idea to understand how they went about creating, transmitting, and receiving meanings. It's not some sort of cultural hegemony. I am not Chinese. I am a barbarian. Don't take my word for it, just ask my dog. About poetry... what can I say. You are wrong. Totally, absolutely, 100% wrong. We need more poetry. Period. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 The biggest problem in appying direct moxa is that no liability insurance will cover it. This is a matter of ignorance rather than safety IMHO. I have seen nasty scars from moxa poles which would never happen with direct thread moxa.>>>The other problem is time. It can take a lot of time to do a treatment Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > Robert, > > Well, let's see if we can suss out > the gist of the apparent conflict. > > What did the old Japanese dude say > about how to resolve the conflict? > i dunno, he's gone now and probably never resolved it himself. > And why do you care? i need to be good at what i'm doing. i'm trying to figure this out myself. maybe more than you. maybe. > > Your remarks about dog walking > and barbarians utterly miss the > point I've made. But they're > darn cute. > well, if i've achieved nothing else, cute will have to do... darn cute, well that's a special distinction... > The point is that if you want to > understand what the Chinese were > saying, it's a good idea to understand > how they went about creating, transmitting, > and receiving meanings. and my counterpoint has been: how long do you expect this will take? how long have you been studying Chinese? do you think you have a good understanding of this subject? how long has it taken you, somebody whose obviously got some smarts and language skills? lifelong learning is one thing, nine-semester curriculum design is another. here in samsara, students have loans around 30 large to start paying back within months of graduation. the doing comes first, the knowing comes later. when i taught xiao yao san in the formula class, i went into a long discussion of the meaning of the term xiao yao from zhuangzi, and i'm sure the students appreciated that. but when we're standing in the dispensary and i tell them to throw together some xiao yao san, there's the blank look... ummmmmmm... what's in it? > > It's not some sort of cultural hegemony. are you sure about that? that's not what i've been hearing. > > I am not Chinese. > > I am a barbarian. Don't take my word > for it, just ask my dog. > > About poetry... > > what can I say. > > You are wrong. Totally, absolutely, > 100% wrong. > > We need more poetry. > > Period. hey you're talking to a guy with an undergrad music theory / composition degree... i'm all for artistic pursuits as an end unto themselves. to me, prescriptions are a kind of poetry... maybe i just need to make my students see that... humble student robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > The biggest problem in appying direct moxa > is that no liability insurance will cover it. This is a matter of > ignorance rather than safety IMHO. I have seen nasty scars from moxa > poles which would never happen with direct thread moxa. > > >>>The other problem is time. It can take a lot of time to do a treatment > Alon yes, it goes quicker when you are skilled, but still most of the senior practitioners have their apprentices do the moxibustion. Shudo sensei has his wife doing it... the family that burns together, earns together... rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Robert, > > > > What did the old Japanese dude say > > about how to resolve the conflict? > > > > i dunno, he's gone now and probably never resolved it himself. So maybe he was just hung up on time. I appreciate that people are busy, pressed to pay bills, walk their dogs, cultivate their souls, and so on. But I continue to believe that the whole time issue is a red herring. Time passes. Period. Five years from now, we'll all be five years older...at least those of us who stick around. > > > And why do you care? > > i need to be good at what i'm doing. i'm trying to figure this out > myself. maybe more than you. maybe. > Maybe. I've no way of even thinking about how to make such a comparison. What I think is vastly more important is that each of us work to be actualize our own potentials. > > > > Your remarks about dog walking > > and barbarians utterly miss the > > point I've made. But they're > > darn cute. > > > > well, if i've achieved nothing else, cute will have to do... darn > cute, well that's a special distinction.... Glad you appreciate that. For a small fee, I can produce a certificate of authentic darn cuteness. I come from a long and very secret lineage of darn cute masters. > > > The point is that if you want to > > understand what the Chinese were > > saying, it's a good idea to understand > > how they went about creating, transmitting, > > and receiving meanings. > > and my counterpoint has been: how long do you expect this will take? Again, I don't see it in terms of how long it takes. It takes as long as it takes. Each time I pick up a text, I tend to see it in a slightly new and different way. My own understanding is always changing. Sometimes I think I've got it all right. Sometimes I think I've got it all wrong. Sometimes I ask more questions. Sometimes I'm left speechless. > how long have you been studying Chinese? Well, in some way shape or form ever since I was about 13. The last ten or eleven years I've raised it to a level of a high priority, but I'm not really a good example. I'm a poor student, rather lazy and more or less undisciplined in my approach. do you think you have a good > understanding of this subject? Horse horse tiger tiger...or in other words, just so so. I consider myself very much a novice. how long has it taken you, somebody > whose obviously got some smarts and language skills? Well, it's taken me eleven years to have spent eleven years doing it. > > lifelong learning is one thing, nine-semester curriculum design is > another. here in samsara, students have loans around 30 large to > start paying back within months of graduation. the doing comes > first, the knowing comes later. As I have said many, many times, each of us has to sort out and deal with the vagaries of our own individual lives and the lives of those who matter and are connected to us. I never ever seek to tell anyone how to live his or her life. I do think that studnets of Chinese medicine should be told to spend some of their time learning to understand how Chinese thought goes, how it is expressed in language, and how this all relates to what they have to master in the way of medical theories and practices. And this is only because based on my own troglodyte experience, people who know what they're doing tend to do it better, more effeciently, more effectively, and with greater satisfaction, joy, income, and all around fun. > > when i taught xiao yao san in the formula class, i went into a long > discussion of the meaning of the term xiao yao from zhuangzi, and i'm > sure the students appreciated that. but when we're standing in the > dispensary and i tell them to throw together some xiao yao san, > there's the blank look... ummmmmmm... what's in it? So maybe you should examine your teaching even more closely. Can't be blaming the students. When the archer misses the bullseye, he puts his attention on himself, not on the bow, not on the arrow, not on the target or the wind or the spinning of the earth...which is all time is. > > > > > It's not some sort of cultural hegemony. > > are you sure about that? that's not what i've been hearing. From me? What have I ever said that suggests to you I am forwarding some sort of agenda that consists of or contains a desire for cultural hegemony of ancient Chinese culture? Personally, I have great misgivings about, well, everything...which of course includes everything Chinese, ancient, modern and then some. However, I do, once again, believe that if we are going to say we are educating people in a subject that we really should include some of the basics. That's all. Pure and simple. Organic and natural. > hey you're talking to a guy with an undergrad music theory / > composition degree... i'm all for artistic pursuits as an end unto > themselves. to me, prescriptions are a kind of poetry... maybe i > just need to make my students see that... Maybe. Couldn't hurt... ....much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Robert, Gee, look what you've gone and made me do now! I got to thinking so much that I wrote you a two page letter. I just uploaded it to the files section so that those who aren't the slightest bit interested won't even have to delete it. Thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Ken, thank you for your letter, i've had some trouble opening it but i finally got into it. i'm flattered that you would take the time to actually consider my incorrigibly smartass arguments thoughtfully. let me read it and get back to youse. one quick clarification: , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > > > > when i taught xiao yao san in the formula class, i went into a > long > > discussion of the meaning of the term xiao yao from zhuangzi, and > i'm > > sure the students appreciated that. but when we're standing in > the > > dispensary and i tell them to throw together some xiao yao san, > > there's the blank look... ummmmmmm... what's in it? > > So maybe you should examine your teaching > even more closely. > > Can't be blaming the students. > > When the archer misses the bullseye, he > puts his attention on himself, not on > the bow, not on the arrow, not on > the target or the wind or the spinning > of the earth...which is all time is. > > no, that wasn't my point, i'm not blaming the students at all... i'm wondering if teaching about Zhuangzi was a waste of valuable time (darnit there's that word again) when perhaps i should have been drilling the formula into people's head. no matter the philosophical gymnastics about time, there's only so many hours of class time. i've lately been grappling with the idea that maybe i'm wasting my time in trying to teach formula composition and encouraging students to study prescriptions. maybe you're right, maybe i should have them write a poem about xiao yao... lessee, what rhymes with bohe? rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Robert, > > thank you for your letter, i've had some trouble opening it but i > finally got into it. i'm flattered that you would take the time to > actually consider my incorrigibly smartass arguments thoughtfully. > let me read it and get back to youse. At your leisure. But my God! Of course I take your smartass arguments seriously! My dear old grandad always said flattery will get you everywhere. He also said, things'll stay the way they are for a little while; and then they'll get worse. So you gotta watch out for that old guy. Fortunately, he's still dead. And that's just the point about time. There are certain thoughts that can be thought...and in certain ways...that manage to ring from time the precious value that it both takes and gives to life. It's not how many ticks of the clock that go by that matter when it comes to knowing. It's precisely the degree of refinement of your...what did you call it?...gymanstics. I'll look forward to your further thoughts after you've had a chance to read the letter. [...] lessee, what > rhymes with bohe? > ko e... sort of... Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 > no matter the philosophical gymnastics about time, there's only so > many hours of class time. i've lately been grappling with the idea > that maybe i'm wasting my time in trying to teach formula composition > and encouraging students to study prescriptions. maybe you're right, > maybe i should have them write a poem about xiao yao... lessee, what > rhymes with bohe? > > > rh > > Hi Robert, She-he rhymes with Bohe Teresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > [...] lessee, what > > rhymes with bohe? > > > ko e... > sort of... > the only thing i could come up with was " no duh " which shows you the level at which my mind operates most of the time....... rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 From one who created many poem/stories to remember prescriptions, associations rather than rhymes work too -- Boo Hoo? Catherine - " kampo36 " <kampo36 Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:35 AM Re: Cultural substrate > , " kenrose2008 " > <kenrose2008> wrote: > > > [...] lessee, what > > > rhymes with bohe? > > > > > ko e... > > sort of... > > > > the only thing i could come up with was " no duh " which shows you the > level at which my mind operates most of the time....... > > rh > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Ken, re: your letter, just getting back to you. << In fact I think a prima facie case can be made for the argument that holds that if you want to understand what someone is saying, you really ought to know what the words mean.Corollary: the more you understand the language and cultural set, of which Chinese medicine is a member, the better your grasp of Chinese medicine will tend to be. >> i cannot really disagree, but taken further, your argument would tend to suggest that unless one is culturally Chinese, one cannot really practice CM. If that is the case, the majority of people on this list are SOL, as are their patients. Because really, no matter how much i study, i came to CM at age 30 after having virtually no exposure (save books) to Chinese culture. A 10-year old boy in Beijing knows more about Chinese culture than i ever will even if i devote the rest of my waking hours to the study of Chinese culture. No? So the devil's advocate in me says your implied argument is that the best we barbarians can hope to achieve -- even if we all learn fluent Chinese -- is some sort of cross cultural mongrelized brand X version of CM. <<... it is possible to know and understand this curious thing known as the Chinese mind by way of studyingÖand using Chinese medicine. >> i'm personally not that driven by the idea of understanding the Chinese mind. i'm not sure i know and understand my own mind let alone the collective mind of billions of people. i honestly can't even tell you after ten years what drives me to study CM. i just study it because i do. i can't remember the last book i read that wasn't related to Chinese or Sino-Japanese medicine (oh unless you count " The Very Hungry Caterpillar " ). It's been years and years. And i still feel like a beginner. <<So, I wanted to clarify that bit about culture. Iím not lobbying for the supremacy of Chinese culture. >> Thank you for clarifying this. <<Iím completely unfamiliar with the source you cited, and knowing nothing of him or his ideas, I donít direct my comments at himÖor at you. I am aiming at this idea that the clinic and the book 2are somehow in conflict. In this, let me reiterate my own bias. I write books. Iím about to engage in a long stint of book writing. If I thought that books obstructed clinical training, as the argument that a minute spent in a book is a minute not spent in the clinic suggests, Iíd stop. >> The source was Fukushima Kodo Dai-sensei, the main founder of the Toyohari Igakukai, a blind acupuncturist reknowned for his healing power as well as his fierce temper and strong opinions. He was nothing if not an ardent classicicist. i don't believe his argument was that reading is an obstacle to practice, i think his lament was that there is not enough time to do a satisfactory amount of both. Despite your protestations to the contrary, i don't think most mortals are able to escape the tyranny of time. Anyway, as before, i don't think we're completely out of alignment here... maybe 30 to 60 degrees. When i teach, i always use historical context to the best of my admittedly limited understanding. And the students tell me they appreciate it, many if not most having never been exposed to it before in any of their other classes. i remain interested in the historical context of CM even though i realize i'll probably not achieve any kind of real understanding because of the distance in terms of time and cultural barriers. One must do something with one's life, and i gotta feed my kid, so, mongrel or not, i'll trudge on. Gracias por leer, caballero. robert hayden fajon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 i'm personally not that driven by the idea of understanding the Chinese mind. i'm not sure i know and understand my own mind let alone the collective mind of billions of people. >>>Robert i agree with you entire post. Not only many of us do not have any interest in learning about Chinese "culture"in depth, but also I think having the kind of point of view that we have, being outsiders, is extremely important. As I have said many times in the past, there is a lot of problems in the way data is collected in modern china and being outside the "cast"system allows us to have a very important vista. My interest in practicing CM is not nessaserilily to do it as the "Chinese" do it. I have chosen to take a particular view to assess what I see (outside the Chinese Dao) to intrepid my, and my patients "reality." Studying CM to me always goes through a filter for better or worse. After going though many different stages in the past 20 years I feel quite comfortable with this process. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 I don't think the goal of studying Chinese medicine and philosophy is to immerse in Chinese culture per se. I think what we realistically can develop (as a profession) is a clear, concise understanding of the basic principles of Chinese medicine (yin, yang, qi, pattern differentiation, channel theory, technical terms), applying the diagnostic protocols and pattern logic, and go from there. On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 08:01 AM, kampo36 wrote: > So the devil's advocate in me says your implied argument is that the > best we barbarians can hope to achieve -- even if we all learn fluent > Chinese -- is some sort of cross cultural mongrelized brand X version > of CM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 I am interested in being inspired by the incredible contributions of Chinese civilization to human culture, especially medicine. I am not as interested in present-day political-social-economic realities of China in impacting how I practice Chinese medicine. I agree we have a different perspective being in the West, potentially a very healthy one. We still need access to the Chinese resources, and a realistic interchange with present day China (and Japan) to develop the medicine. On Sunday, August 3, 2003, at 10:16 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > i'm personally not that driven by the idea of understanding the > Chinese mind. i'm not sure i know and understand my own mind let > alone the collective mind of billions of people. > > >>>Robert i agree with you entire post. Not only many of us do not > have any interest in learning about Chinese " culture " in depth, but > also I think having the kind of point of view that we have, being > outsiders, is extremely important. As I have said many times in the > past, there is a lot of problems in the way data is collected in > modern china and being outside the " cast " system allows us to have a > very important vista. My interest in practicing CM is not > nessaserilily to do it as the " Chinese " do it. I have chosen to take a > particular view to assess what I see (outside the Chinese Dao) to > intrepid my, and my patients " reality. " Studying CM to me always goes > through a filter for better or worse. After going though many > different stages in the past 20 years I feel quite comfortable with > this process. > > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Robert, First of all, thanks for the thoughtful reply. > > i cannot really disagree, but taken further, your argument would tend > to suggest that unless one is culturally Chinese, one cannot really > practice CM. If that is the case, the majority of people on this > list are SOL, as are their patients. Because really, no matter how > much i study, i came to CM at age 30 after having virtually no > exposure (save books) to Chinese culture. A 10-year old boy in > Beijing knows more about Chinese culture than i ever will even if i > devote the rest of my waking hours to the study of Chinese culture. > No? Yes...I mean, No. The argument need not be taken any further than it is useful. I do not make it in order to establish anything but a foundation. Any argument can be extended so far in one direction that it loses its relevance to real situations. The real situation is not that people in the States and elsewhere are in imminent danger of becoming Chinese. The real situation is that students of Chinese medicine tend to be ignorant and tend to be taught to ignore the cultural roots of the subject to their detriment. > > So the devil's advocate in me says your implied argument is that the > best we barbarians can hope to achieve -- even if we all learn fluent > Chinese -- is some sort of cross cultural mongrelized brand X version > of CM. Well, I'll just talk to you, and leave the devil's advocate to you to talk to. I don't have this barbarian thing going on. You are certainly entitled to bring to the discussion any issues you see fit. But my point is what I said, and by continually extending it into apparently " logical " zones that make it seem utterly illogical, well, I think you're just giving in to the devil and his advocacy of...whatever it is you're advocating. Which is what? I don't clearly see it. > > <<... it is possible to know and understand this curious thing known > as the Chinese mind by way of studyingÖand using Chinese medicine. >> > > i'm personally not that driven by the idea of understanding the > Chinese mind. i'm not sure i know and understand my own mind let > alone the collective mind of billions of people. i honestly can't > even tell you after ten years what drives me to study CM. i just > study it because i do. i can't remember the last book i read that > wasn't related to Chinese or Sino-Japanese medicine (oh unless you > count " The Very Hungry Caterpillar " ). It's been years and years. And > i still feel like a beginner. Me, too. And outside of personal predilections there is no reason whatsoever to study, understand, appreciate, " the Chinese mind " ... ....unless, that is, if one were interested in understanding any of its various artifacts... ....such as Chinese medicine. .... > > The source was Fukushima Kodo Dai-sensei, the main founder of the > Toyohari Igakukai, a blind acupuncturist reknowned for his healing > power as well as his fierce temper and strong opinions. He was > nothing if not an ardent classicicist. i don't believe his argument > was that reading is an obstacle to practice, i think his lament was > that there is not enough time to do a satisfactory amount of both. > Despite your protestations to the contrary, i don't think most > mortals are able to escape the tyranny of time. I don't disagree. I just happen to agree with Marvel when he suggests that the bind in which time places us provides the tension that we use to motivate our lives. Point being, it's not a problem that we have limited time, it's the basic opportunity. If we had forever, there'd be no need to ever do anything, as it could all be done later. > > Anyway, as before, i don't think we're completely out of alignment > here... maybe 30 to 60 degrees. When i teach, i always use > historical context to the best of my admittedly limited > understanding. And the students tell me they appreciate it, many if > not most having never been exposed to it before in any of their other > classes. i remain interested in the historical context of CM even > though i realize i'll probably not achieve any kind of real > understanding because of the distance in terms of time and cultural > barriers. One must do something with one's life, and i gotta feed my > kid, so, mongrel or not, i'll trudge on. I'm not arguing for anything beyond what you've said you're already doing, other than perhaps a generally and persistent admonition, which I give to myself as well as to others, that we make it new every day. One of the things I've learned from my study and practice of taiji is that daily practice, daily care, daily progress all matter far beyond ideological issues. We'll all get to different places, a fact that I celebrate. We should simply get it together as a group to recognize the source of our subject. It has a source and it can be recognized, albeit not that clealy at many times. I gotta trot over to this other list now and squawk about consciousness. Thanks, again, for an engaging discussion. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: I think you're just giving > in to the devil and his advocacy of...whatever > it is you're advocating. > > Which is what? I don't clearly see it. i dunno... tolerance, i suppose. Acknowledgement that possibly we in the West are contributing something of value not specifically tied into how closely we can imitate the Chinese. Do we think that Japanese have contributed anything of value to the development of CM? How about the French? > > outside of personal predilections > there is no reason whatsoever to study, > understand, appreciate, " the Chinese mind " ... > > ...unless, that is, if one were interested in > understanding any of its various artifacts... > > ...such as Chinese medicine. > > ... Next time i visit my son's pediatrician, i'll ask him if he's been reading Hippocrates lately... or Culpepper... the Eclectics... somehow i think i know how he'll react... i think he's a good pediatrician, but perhaps he doesn't really understand medicine.... arrrgghhh... the devil again! actually, " artifact " might be an appropriate word, because i suspect if we include the assimilation of an entire foreign culture as a prerequisite to the practice of CM, we'll be looking at it as an artifact -- extinct, behind a glass in a museum. We can be divided and snobbish about the whole thing and we can preside over the premature demise of what might actually be a fruitful transformation of medicine not only in the West but all over the world. We need people like you, Ken, but we also need Alon, Z'ev, Jim, Emmanuel, etc, to make this thing work. " Ours is not a caravan of despair, come as you are, come again, come... " > > We should simply get it together as a group > to recognize the source of our subject. > It has a source and it can be recognized, > albeit not that clealy at many times. > i think that we do recognize it... again, here, you're largely preaching to the choir. i don't think any of us here are poles apart, unless Ulett or Randi are lurking on the list. How deeply we participate in the source culture is another matter, and i think this is something which is an individual decision. Just like i think the Alt-med Health-fascist thing is likely to backfire, so the Cultivation Police will too. Unless we are willing to consider Centering Prayer or Sufi dancing or electric violin playing or meditative dog-walking or whatever else close enough to Cultivation, we'll never assimilate -- CM will be an " artifact " while the technical end of it, the needles and formulae, will become the provenance of biomedicine. Extremism only serves extremists, no one else benefits. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 Amigo, Let me see if I get this right. You basically agree with the positions that I've put forward, but when you extend them to extremes, they become untenable and illogical. Then, somehow, I become an extremist. And this, you say, is all about tolerance. Well, okay. That all sort of makes sense. I've long ago realized, after listening to the testimony of so many about so much that it's all my fault. So be it. At least I haven't made you read my poetry! Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2003 Report Share Posted August 3, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > Amigo, > > Let me see if I get this right. > > You basically agree with the positions > that I've put forward, but when you > extend them to extremes, they become > untenable and illogical. Then, somehow, > I become an extremist. > did i say you? i thought i said " we " ... let me read it again...yup, i said " we " , meaning you and me, meaning us all. > And this, you say, is all about tolerance. yup, i tolerate your position even when we disagree... do you do the same? if so, then you're no extremist. > > Well, okay. That all sort of makes > sense. I've long ago realized, after > listening to the testimony of so > many about so much that it's all > my fault. And where is this coming from alluva sudden? don't we all have the right to pontificate? what did i say to make you construe this post as a personal attack? > > So be it. > > At least I haven't made you read my > poetry! > you don't make me read your prose nor your pontifications neither... i read them because i choose to, because i want to hear and understand your views. if i didn't care, of if i thought you were an extremist, i wouldn't bother responding to you -- i don't debate extremists, it's a waste of time. but i debate you, at least to the best of my puny ability. Ken, let me be honest here -- sometimes i think because your position is so strongly stated, i hear what seems to be a sort of judgemental tone in some of your posts... that even we who are putting forth effort and studying this medicine every day are somehow " not Chinese enough " . All i'm asking is the allowance that people is people and the possibility that CM is a big enough boat to allow a diversity of views and ways and cultural backgrounds to participate. That's all... rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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