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Nephritis, Renal Hypertension

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Group, any suggestions, comments, references would

be appreciated. Patient 59 male, was in good health.

Went through a lot of stress. Has worked around nerve

agent( at chemical arms plant), he thinks problem

began with food poisioning in March 2003. He got very

sick and had antibiotics. Had diarrhea then, seemed to

recover, however his BP was slowly rising. He was

getting SOB with running, some chest tightness. In May

BP went to 180/120 went to hospital, Put on dialysis.

Western Dx. Acute Nephritis, IgA nephropathy

(autoimmune problem) extensive interstitial nephritis

and fibrosis. This was found on left kidney biopsy, MD

says *5% of Kd function left, only course of action

transplant. Patient getting dialysis 3 times/week.

Taking labatrol for HBP, dirutic, was given pregnose

which cause swelling, stopped this

Review of Systems: Urination normal. no blood in

urine, no pain. Swelling has gone down. No back pain,

cept with dialysis, male errectile function normal,

can have slight discomfort at kidney area, no real

pain, heat helps. Patient had loose stools , ok now.

He had been getting reflux before problem, not now. No

HA's or dizzy(cept after dialysis), no tinitus.

Patient shows no sign of infection, no sweats, no

feeling of heat. He has had bitter taste in mouth. He

has some varicosities on his legs. No other S & s.

Tongue: fat, slightly purple, scalloped red sides.

Pulse: Drum-like, weaker left cubit, also whole pulse

weaker after dialysis.

Since dialysis I have been giving him Ac & granule

herbs. His BP is between 170/90 and 120/72 (after

dialysis). BUN & Creatine came down initially, however

creatine has not come down into normal range & high

protien meals can make it higher.

Dx Sp-Kd Xu with Dampness acummulation(he had ankle

edema gone now) Lv depression, blood stagnation. My

formulas have slowly changing now Fu Ling 15, Huang Qi

12, Dang Shen 12, Shan Yao 9, Du Zhong 9, Dan Shen 12,

Shu Di 9. Sang Ji Shen 9, Zie Xie 9, Zhu Ling 9, Bai

shao 6, Chai Hu 6 , formula at 12 g/day.

I'm wondering about the autoimmune part, I see no

signs of toxins or heat, in fact patient likes heat,

however labs state inflamatory calls are scattered

widely throughout the interstitium?

Overall, his energy is up, BP is down,no chest

tightness, he feels better has reduced labatoral to

1/day, still creatine hasn't come down. Ideas? Steve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Myformulas have slowly changing now Fu Ling 15, Huang Qi12, Dang Shen 12, Shan Yao 9, Du Zhong 9, Dan Shen 12,Shu Di 9. Sang Ji Shen 9, Zie Xie 9, Zhu Ling 9, Baishao 6, Chai Hu 6 , formula at 12 g/day.>>>>>You may conceder much higher dose of huang qi 60g or so, dong cao xia cao, and small dose of jin yin hua

Alon

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, Steve Snydes

<snydez99> wrote:

> Overall, his energy is up, BP is down,no chest

> tightness, he feels better has reduced labatoral to

> 1/day, still creatine hasn't come down. Ideas? Steve

>

Steve

What is it that you are aiming to treat here? Given that creatinine

in itself is not toxic and that he no longer (effectively) has

kidneys.

Simon

 

>

>

>

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Simon, my goal however unreasonable it is, is to drop

creatine levels to hopefully get the patient off

dialysis. What you don't know is that i'm dealing with

a unique (amazing) individual here. I have played the

devils advocate(in favor of the transplant asp after

talking to his MD), however he wants to try to get his

Kidneys functioning wihtout that. My goal is also, to

make the patient feel better while he has dialysis,

which according to him is happeing(placebo?)- it is

boosting his energy, taking less med's. ect. I told

him last friday that if it were me I'd get on a

transplant list & give this a couple of months to see

if we can get anywhere (it's been 2 months so far).

Ihave one ace up my sleeve, here in Portland one of my

teachers Dr Wei Lei, has just published Nephritis Book

 

soming out in October, I may have him go to her as

this is her specialty. Steve

--- Simon King <dallasking wrote:

> , Steve

> Snydes

> <snydez99> wrote:

> > Overall, his energy is up, BP is down,no chest

> > tightness, he feels better has reduced labatoral

> to

> > 1/day, still creatine hasn't come down. Ideas?

> Steve

> >

> Steve

> What is it that you are aiming to treat here? Given

> that creatinine

> in itself is not toxic and that he no longer

> (effectively) has

> kidneys.

> Simon

>

> >

> > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

> >

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

Steve,

I think that 5% of kidney function,especially if the biopsy confirms

how bad things are, is an impossible situation to recover. However my

experience is, as you are finding, that herbs can help with dialysis

malaise. In this case, I don't think that advocating transplant is to

play devil's advocate, one feels a heck of a lot better than on

dialysis and it is a safer place to be. Adjusting to the prognosis of

organ failure is very hard, especially if it has been a rapid

process, and prehaps treating is a useful part of that adjustment.

 

I think that there is a strong case to be made for longterm treatment

to damp down the IgA process which might effect any future kidney

and, if and when he has another kidney and is over the first very

heavy anti-rejection regimmine, to think about chronic rejection

which is thought to be a consequence of poor blood supply and

sclerosing.

 

This said, if he does recover some function I would be very

interested to hear.

 

Simon

 

, Steve Snydes

<snydez99> wrote:

> Simon, my goal however unreasonable it is, is to drop

> creatine levels to hopefully get the patient off

> dialysis. What you don't know is that i'm dealing with

> a unique (amazing) individual here. I have played the

> devils advocate(in favor of the transplant asp after

> talking to his MD), however he wants to try to get his

> Kidneys functioning wihtout that. My goal is also, to

> make the patient feel better while he has dialysis,

> which according to him is happeing(placebo?)- it is

> boosting his energy, taking less med's. ect. I told

> him last friday that if it were me I'd get on a

> transplant list & give this a couple of months to see

> if we can get anywhere (it's been 2 months so far).

> Ihave one ace up my sleeve, here in Portland one of my

> teachers Dr Wei Lei, has just published Nephritis Book

>

> soming out in October, I may have him go to her as

> this is her specialty. Steve

> > Simon

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest

My understanding is that doctors are generally resistant to giving

transplants to patients with kidney failure due to autoimmune causes

because the transplanted kidney will be subject to the same autoimmune

attack. They would prefer to give a kidney to someone who could use it

longer, with less likelihood of rejection. Is this somehow not the case

with this patient?

 

Pat

 

 

" Steve Snydes "

<snydez99 To:

 

om> cc:

Re:

Re: Nephritis, Renal

Office: Hypertension

08/04/2003 07:19

PM

Please respond to

chineseherbacadem

y

 

 

 

 

Simon, my goal however unreasonable it is, is to drop

creatine levels to hopefully get the patient off

dialysis. What you don't know is that i'm dealing with

a unique (amazing) individual here. I have played the

devils advocate(in favor of the transplant asp after

talking to his MD), however he wants to try to get his

Kidneys functioning wihtout that. My goal is also, to

make the patient feel better while he has dialysis,

which according to him is happeing(placebo?)- it is

boosting his energy, taking less med's. ect. I told

him last friday that if it were me I'd get on a

transplant list & give this a couple of months to see

if we can get anywhere (it's been 2 months so far).

Ihave one ace up my sleeve, here in Portland one of my

teachers Dr Wei Lei, has just published Nephritis Book

 

soming out in October, I may have him go to her as

this is her specialty. Steve

--- Simon King <dallasking wrote:

> , Steve

> Snydes

> <snydez99> wrote:

> > Overall, his energy is up, BP is down,no chest

> > tightness, he feels better has reduced labatoral

> to

> > 1/day, still creatine hasn't come down. Ideas?

> Steve

> >

> Steve

> What is it that you are aiming to treat here? Given

> that creatinine

> in itself is not toxic and that he no longer

> (effectively) has

> kidneys.

> Simon

>

> >

> > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

> >

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

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Guest guest

, " Pat Ethridge "

<pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> My understanding is that doctors are generally resistant to giving

> transplants to patients with kidney failure due to autoimmune causes

> because the transplanted kidney will be subject to the same

autoimmune

> attack. They would prefer to give a kidney to someone who could

use it

> longer, with less likelihood of rejection.

>

 

This is absolutely not the case in the UK, any autoimmune process is

by no means certain to start up again in the new kidney and if it

does it may be very mild and the least of the problems for the

longterm health of the kidney. My kidneys failed after 30 years of

IgA disease, so I had a long time to look into it.Chronic rejection

is the main problem for kidney lifespan and this is not related to

the original disease as far as I am aware.

Simon

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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========

> NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be

legally

> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not

read, use or

> disseminate the information. Although this email and any

attachments are

> believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect

any

> computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the

responsibility

> of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no

responsibility is

> accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or

damage arising

> in any way from its use.

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>

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Guest guest

Pat I want to thank you & Simon for bringing up this

point, frankly I have no idea what his MD's have in

mind. I have a friend who had a liver transplant & got

one even though he had Hep-C. The only thing I can say

is that they want him to have a transplant. I'm still

in the dark as to dealing with an autoimmune disorder

with so little s & s.

Steve

--- Pat Ethridge <pat.ethridge wrote:

> My understanding is that doctors are generally

> resistant to giving

> transplants to patients with kidney failure due to

> autoimmune causes

> because the transplanted kidney will be subject to

> the same autoimmune

> attack. They would prefer to give a kidney to

> someone who could use it

> longer, with less likelihood of rejection. Is this

> somehow not the case

> with this patient?

>

> Pat

>

>

> " Steve Snydes "

> <snydez99 To:

>

> om> cc:

>

> Re:

> Re: Nephritis, Renal

> Office:

> Hypertension

> 08/04/2003 07:19

> PM

> Please respond to

> chineseherbacadem

> y

>

>

>

>

> Simon, my goal however unreasonable it is, is to

> drop

> creatine levels to hopefully get the patient off

> dialysis. What you don't know is that i'm dealing

> with

> a unique (amazing) individual here. I have played

> the

> devils advocate(in favor of the transplant asp after

> talking to his MD), however he wants to try to get

> his

> Kidneys functioning wihtout that. My goal is also,

> to

> make the patient feel better while he has dialysis,

> which according to him is happeing(placebo?)- it is

> boosting his energy, taking less med's. ect. I told

> him last friday that if it were me I'd get on a

> transplant list & give this a couple of months to

> see

> if we can get anywhere (it's been 2 months so far).

> Ihave one ace up my sleeve, here in Portland one of

> my

> teachers Dr Wei Lei, has just published Nephritis

> Book

>

> soming out in October, I may have him go to her as

> this is her specialty. Steve

> --- Simon King <dallasking wrote:

> > , Steve

> > Snydes

> > <snydez99> wrote:

> > > Overall, his energy is up, BP is down,no

> chest

> > > tightness, he feels better has reduced

> labatoral

> > to

> > > 1/day, still creatine hasn't come down. Ideas?

> > Steve

> > >

> > Steve

> > What is it that you are aiming to treat here?

> Given

> > that creatinine

> > in itself is not toxic and that he no longer

> > (effectively) has

> > kidneys.

> > Simon

> >

> > >

> > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> > design software

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

> of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and

> postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

> variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

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Guest guest

Perhaps this question should be rephrased in a more general way. Is there

any special way to deal with patients with autoimmune diseases which may

not show severe or clear CM patterns, depending on the stage, as

" autoimmune disease " is strictly a WM concept. I have wondered if

stimulating certain points or using certain herbs (especially those

described by Western texts as " strengthening immunity " ) might accelerate

the autoimmune reaction progress, or maybe dampen it. In some cases, the

CM patterns seem very mild, so it is hard to see how treatment can affect

the disease progress itself, since it seems more to strengthen the patient

generally. Perhaps CM cannot be used specifically in this instance? Is

there current work in China which addresses autoimmunity in a more direct

sense? I have a lot of confusion around this issue and would appreciate

any insight from others.

 

Pat

 

 

" Steve Snydes "

<snydez99 To:

 

om> cc:

Re:

Re: Nephritis, Renal

Office: Hypertension

08/05/2003 06:31

PM

Please respond to

chineseherbacadem

y

 

 

 

 

Pat I want to thank you & Simon for bringing up this

point, frankly I have no idea what his MD's have in

mind. I have a friend who had a liver transplant & got

one even though he had Hep-C. The only thing I can say

is that they want him to have a transplant. I'm still

in the dark as to dealing with an autoimmune disorder

with so little s & s.

Steve

--- Pat Ethridge <pat.ethridge wrote:

> My understanding is that doctors are generally

> resistant to giving

> transplants to patients with kidney failure due to

> autoimmune causes

> because the transplanted kidney will be subject to

> the same autoimmune

> attack. They would prefer to give a kidney to

> someone who could use it

> longer, with less likelihood of rejection. Is this

> somehow not the case

> with this patient?

>

> Pat

>

>

> " Steve Snydes "

> <snydez99 To:

>

> om> cc:

>

> Re:

> Re: Nephritis, Renal

> Office:

> Hypertension

> 08/04/2003 07:19

> PM

> Please respond to

> chineseherbacadem

> y

>

>

>

>

> Simon, my goal however unreasonable it is, is to

> drop

> creatine levels to hopefully get the patient off

> dialysis. What you don't know is that i'm dealing

> with

> a unique (amazing) individual here. I have played

> the

> devils advocate(in favor of the transplant asp after

> talking to his MD), however he wants to try to get

> his

> Kidneys functioning wihtout that. My goal is also,

> to

> make the patient feel better while he has dialysis,

> which according to him is happeing(placebo?)- it is

> boosting his energy, taking less med's. ect. I told

> him last friday that if it were me I'd get on a

> transplant list & give this a couple of months to

> see

> if we can get anywhere (it's been 2 months so far).

> Ihave one ace up my sleeve, here in Portland one of

> my

> teachers Dr Wei Lei, has just published Nephritis

> Book

>

> soming out in October, I may have him go to her as

> this is her specialty. Steve

> --- Simon King <dallasking wrote:

> > , Steve

> > Snydes

> > <snydez99> wrote:

> > > Overall, his energy is up, BP is down,no

> chest

> > > tightness, he feels better has reduced

> labatoral

> > to

> > > 1/day, still creatine hasn't come down. Ideas?

> > Steve

> > >

> > Steve

> > What is it that you are aiming to treat here?

> Given

> > that creatinine

> > in itself is not toxic and that he no longer

> > (effectively) has

> > kidneys.

> > Simon

> >

> > >

> > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> > design software

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

> of licensed healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and

> postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a

> variety of professional

> services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

, " Pat Ethridge "

<pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> Perhaps this question should be rephrased in a more general way.

Is there

> any special way to deal with patients with autoimmune diseases

which may

> not show severe or clear CM patterns, depending on the stage, as

> " autoimmune disease " is strictly a WM concept.

 

I have not come across herbs being explicitly stated as for

autoimmune diseases, but in the kidney context, for instance, this

might be seen as implicit in the frequent use of huang qi despite the

pattern. So much so that an article I am translating at the moment

thinks it necessary to discuss why not to use huang qi in damp heat

kidney disease.

 

More commonly though, in the kidney formulae for kidney disease

whether they are autoimmune or not the pattern approach is

predominant.

 

I have wondered if

> stimulating certain points or using certain herbs (especially those

> described by Western texts as " strengthening immunity " ) might

accelerate

> the autoimmune reaction progress, or maybe dampen it.

 

Prehaps it is more useful to see autoimmunity as a chaotic process

and herbs like huang qi as regulating that process.

 

In some cases, the

> CM patterns seem very mild, so it is hard to see how treatment can

affect

> the disease progress itself, since it seems more to strengthen the

patient

> generally.

 

Overall this seems to be a problem of merging fuzzy WM and CM

concepts.

For autoimmunity is not an overstrong immune system in a simple sense

and to " strengthen the patient " in a CM sense might of course involve

removing pathogenic qi but even if one is talking about boosting the

qi, then this most certainly has application to autoimmune diseases

many of which are precipitated by an external pathogen invading a

weakened defensive qi. Eg wind cold damp in rheumatoid arthritis or

wind cold or heat in IgA disease. Hence the frequent use of huang qi.

 

I too would be very intersted if there are CM articles about

autoimmunity as a specific entity.

 

Simon

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Guest guest

Simon and others,

 

WIth IgA problems in particular, there often seem to be certain

predisposing or triggering factors: premature birth (which in theory leaves

maternal cells circulating in the bloodstream, possibly triggering later

autoimmunity), family history of autoimmune disease (in particular,

pernicious anemia) -- both of which would seem to relate to Jing or

pre-natal essence. Subsequent viral attack (like mononucleosis,

Epstein-Barr, etc.), or invading EPF, can trigger an autoimmune reponse.

Also, there is typically poor or inappropriate diet, leading to fungal

overgrowth or poor digestion (weak Spleen), as well as frequent antibiotic

overuse (suppressing EPF). No one of these factors is usually sufficient

to trigger the autoimmune response, but all together will. So treating all

these issues (weak Jing, weak Spleen, etc.) will strengthen the patient,

without necessarily stopping the autoimmune process. Long-term, the

gradual breakdown of systems leads to Yin fire syndrome. Does this sound

right?

 

Pat

 

 

 

==============================================================================

NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally

privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not read, use or

disseminate the information. Although this email and any attachments are

believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any

computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility

of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is

accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage arising

in any way from its use.

 

==============================================================================

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