toxins in the early stage of disease

[Guest guest]

>It would seem to me that diseases that involve "toxin" in TCM usually have

>quite extreme symptoms. Thus if one was coughing blood in later stage of

>lung cancer, perhaps one might use herbs like da qing ye. But what would

>technically call for the use of such an herb in early stages that might

>just involve dyspnea. Are there any classical signs of toxin in the early

>stages of the disease that would warrant this approach from a purely CM

>perspective. I always had the same concern working on AIDS patients. Now,

> on the other hand, I will play my own devil's advocate. A number of

>herbs have been shown to have special activity against cancers. San Leng

>and E zhu, the blood movers and bai hua she she cao, the resolve toxin

>herb are a few examples. Would or do people use herbs like bai hua she

>she cao even in the absence of abscesses, sores, ulcerations, heat

>stangury or dampheat jaundice?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Toxin is problematic term and concept I have been straddling between CM and non-CM alt-med (e.g.. Naturopath, Natural Hygiene, and other "Cleansing" paradigms) world view. Often, I have often caution clients about overemphasized latter approach to addressing toxins.

 

 

 

The non-CM cleansing paradigms seem to be less inhibited about prophylactic herbal toxin cleansing, without regarding to signs and symptoms. Maybe they are ease with using herbs know to do clean toxins, because of the 1)empirical knowledge, and 2) lack of a comparable bian zheng.

 

 

 

Maybe the Chinese Materia medica contains a remedy we can use in absence of clear and obvious toxin s/s. But then again, there's that pesky bian zheng stuff that makes me hesitant from using chinese formulas prophylactically to address toxins w/o clear s/s.

 

 

 

In absence of extreme symptoms, would it be justifiable to turn to remedies like red clover, nettles, yellowdock, dandelion, and burdock root? The stuff considered to be nutritive and alterative tonics? I have been trying to conceptually work this out myself.

 

 

 

what does you naturopath background have to say about this?

 

 

 

As to:

 

>Are there any classical signs of toxin in the early

 

 

 

>stages of the disease that would warrant this approach from a purely CM

 

 

 

>perspective.

 

 

 

Would those be subclinical signs? Maybe the pulse diagnosticians, tongue readers, and etiology masters can say a few words.

 

 

 

Malino.

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[Guest guest]

, " Malino Khun " <QiMed@H...>

wrote:

 

In absence of extreme symptoms, would it be justifiable to turn to remedies

like red clover, nettles, yellowdock, dandelion, and burdock root? The stuff

considered to be nutritive and alterative tonics? I have been trying to

conceptually work this out myself.... what does you naturopath

background have to say about this?

:

 

those same herbs are considered to clear heat and toxin in TCM. We need to

know if such herbs were ever used as nutritives or foods in china. We know

huang lian was used to stimulate spleen function and I know some profs who

start all patients on da cheng qi tang for 3 days before anything else. I know

how to use these alteratives naturopathically, but do not find that idea of

using

bitter, cold leafy herbs long term overlaps with any TCM concept I know of.

Maybe Tom Garran can help.