Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 > > > > > > Agreed, But the schools need something that they don't have... A real > > clinic/ hospital to actually see patients. And with that maybe some > > clinical trials can show that we can perform on this level... > > > > - > > > > > > > > Re: Re: doctors and patients > > > > I have agreed and championed this idea for some time. Clearly we need > > TCM hospitals in the West to move to another level of patient care. > > Stuart Watts has also talked about this necessity for a long time, and > > I believe Bob Flaws is presently attempting to develop this type of > > project. Alas, funding is difficult to come by for such things. > > > > Yes.. this is an issue... My point is something like this... IF we support a doctorate prg. w/o these tcm hospitals/ or 'real' clinical' experience, what is it going to do for our profession? If we think that a doctorate prg. w/o these are going to elevate our status, I wonder how? Personally I find it quite ridiculous. Why would I ever sign up for such a prg? for better clinical results? What would I get out of it? Furthermore, on the other side of the coin, what is the use a doctorate prg without some sort of serious research capabilities, if a research track is envisioned... Do any of the schools have a worthwhile proposal on how this is going to be done? I personally see this issue somewhat black & white. Without a major clinical experience or research capabilities then the prg should not exist. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > > > > > Yes.. this is an issue... My point is something like this... IF we > support a doctorate prg. w/o these tcm hospitals/ or 'real' > clinical' experience, what is it going to do for our profession? at the most it will provide students with a more detailed knowledge of TCM(which is great). I am just not convinced that a sincere and thorough reading of the good english material out there isn't enough to compensate for many of these proposed programs. > If we think that a doctorate prg. w/o these are going to elevate our > status, I wonder how? i guess we get a Dr. in front of our name...or do we? Most of the everyday people i meet don't seem to even know that chinese medicine has a strong internal medicine side. If the public isn't beyond seeing us as mostly acupuncturists and ginseng peddlers, then why should they really be that persuaded by a different lettering accompanying our practice? Personally I find it quite ridiculous. Why > would I ever sign up for such a prg? for better clinical results? > What would I get out of it? Furthermore, on the other side of the > coin, what is the use a doctorate prg without some sort of serious > research capabilities, Correct me if i'm wrong, but in China don't they go to school for 4 to 5 yrs for their bachelors in this stuff, with a minority of students going on for their masters and even less for the doctorate. The masters and doctorate level programs are major contributors to ongoing research and development in the field. In academic circles, as we know...we write a masters thesis for a graduate program and that in turn, serves to augment the current field and act as a resource for future researchers and students to read, research and learn from. We didn't even have to write any papers at my school. Let's get real here. Our masters programs don't even really function at a Master's level. if a research track is envisioned... Do any of > the schools have a worthwhile proposal on how this is going to be > done? I personally see this issue somewhat black & white. Without a > major clinical experience or research capabilities then the prg > should not exist. It seems as if at least PCOM seems to be offering an interesting clinical program. I'm not sure about other schools. American global university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. Where's the quality control? matt > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 At 6:23 PM +0000 8/8/03, facteau8 wrote: American global university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. Where's the quality control? -- Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 At 6:23 PM +0000 8/8/03, facteau8 wrote: American global university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. Where's the quality control? -- Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? Rory -- Dear Rory and All, Here's some random thoughts from another perspective. I'm currently engaged in helping my wife with her masters in nursing through University of Phoenix on-line program. The graduate students function in team seminars and write lengthy treatises complete with APA style documentation. It's really quite interesting to watch a team of four women living in Taiwan, California, Colorado and Florida organize their work, read the research and put together these rather amazing papers. They report into a secure website to various ruggedly demanding PhDs in nursing. The clinical portion of the program occurs locally at a hospital, although my wife has volunteered in some non-profit programs in Taipei in order to write up some assessments of public health in her area for that portion of the masters program. Clinical things still always need to be done in the clinic, but lecture and graduate seminars with Power Point presentations are all done on-line. My own faculty at Merritt College lists people with Univ. of Phoenix masters degrees. So I guess such things are becoming pretty normal. Another friend of mine here in California is the dean of the on-line at-distance learning center at Vanderbilt University in Tennessee. Isn't that an interesting scenario. She flies to Tennessee once per month. The question you need to ask as a prospective student is whether the institution is accredited by the regional and national accrediting agencies. Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 At 3:53 PM -0700 8/8/03, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: At 6:23 PM +0000 8/8/03, facteau8 wrote: American global university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. Where's the quality control? -- Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? -- Dear Rory and All, Here's some random thoughts from another perspective. I'm currently engaged in helping my wife with her masters in nursing through University of Phoenix on-line program... The question you need to ask as a prospective student is whether the institution is accredited by the regional and national accrediting agencies. -- Emmanuel, Yes, I know that there are reputable on-line graduate programs, such as Phoenix. I wonder whether American Global is one of them. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 < Emmanuel, Yes, I know that there are reputable on-line graduate programs, such as Phoenix. I wonder whether American Global is one of them. Rory> -- From their website: LICENSURE American Global University is fully licensed by the State of Wyoming under W.S. 21-2-401 through 21-2-407. ACCREDITATION American Global University is not accredited by the U.S. Department of Education, the Council on Higher Education Accreditation, or any other recognized accrediting agency. AFFILIATIONS See affiliations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2003 Report Share Posted August 8, 2003 , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: > At 3:53 PM -0700 8/8/03, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > >At 6:23 PM +0000 8/8/03, facteau8 wrote: American global > >university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental > >medicine. Where's the quality control? > > -- > > > >Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? > > > >-- > > > >Dear Rory and All, > > > >Here's some random thoughts from another perspective. I'm currently > >engaged in helping my wife with her masters in nursing through > >University of Phoenix on-line program... The question you need to > >ask as a prospective student is whether the institution is > >accredited by the regional and national accrediting agencies. > -- > > Emmanuel, > > Yes, I know that there are reputable on-line graduate programs, such > as Phoenix. I wonder whether American Global is one of them. > > Rory > -- I found their website at www.americanglobalu.edu their alternative medicine phd dept. is headed by a Dave Liu. He is a chinese medicine doc. with a phd from global university. It's accredited out of the state of Wyoming. Offering a p.h.d in chinese medicine through a correspondence course seems a bit strange though doesn't it? I suppose it could be legit and well composed, but there are obvious limitations to such things. At the same time, i often imagine certificate courses such as the quality blue poppy offers to be a fair means by which to attain a good junior training in a specialization. I guess it really comes down too quality assurance in all this stuff. As long as doctoral programs have high standards for themselves they will hopefully manage to convey what is meaningful. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Rory and Emmanuel, UOP is reputable, regionally accredited and the fastest growing and largest university system in the world. They are very good at adult, student centered learning processes whereby faculty are facilitators. American Global has a state approval and no accreditation status be it programmatic or regional. This could be akin to receiving an ND degree from a mail-order house in the South, or it could be similar to Kathy White's program (American University); it is a Ph.D. with classical focus and much Jeffrey Yuen content, a pretty good program that is 'state approved.' American Global is likely somewhere in between American Global and American University regarding quality - the problem is that state approved programs cannot get you a university gig. Emmanuel's wife's program at UOP could. Best regards, Will In a message dated 8/8/2003 3:55:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, susegmen writes: American global university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. Where's the quality control? -- Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? Rory William R. Morris, OMD Secretary, AAOM Dean of Clinical Education Emperor's College of TOM 310-453-8383 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 I meant to say American Global is probably between an American University and a Louisiana ND. Will American Global is likely somewhere in between American Global and American University regarding quality - the problem is that state approved programs cannot get you a university gig. Emmanuel's wife's program at UOP could. William R. Morris, OMD Secretary, AAOM Dean of Clinical Education Emperor's College of TOM 310-453-8383 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2003 Report Share Posted August 9, 2003 Will: Can someone doing the American University program sit for the NCCAOM exam? Jim Ramholz , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Rory and Emmanuel, > > UOP is reputable, regionally accredited and the fastest growing and largest > university system in the world. They are very good at adult, student centered > learning processes whereby faculty are facilitators. American Global has a > state approval and no accreditation status be it programmatic or regional. This > could be akin to receiving an ND degree from a mail-order house in the South, or > it could be similar to Kathy White's program (American University); it is a > Ph.D. with classical focus and much Jeffrey Yuen content, a pretty good program > that is 'state approved.' American Global is likely somewhere in between > American Global and American University regarding quality - the problem is that > state approved programs cannot get you a university gig. Emmanuel's wife's > program at UOP could. > > Best regards, > Will > > > In a message dated 8/8/2003 3:55:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > susegmen@i... writes: > > > > American global > > university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. > > Where's the quality control? > > > > -- > > > > Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? > > > > Rory > > > > > William R. Morris, OMD > Secretary, AAOM > Dean of Clinical Education > Emperor's College of TOM > 310-453-8383 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 In a message dated 8/8/03 11:30:42 AM, writes: Yes.. this is an issue... My point is something like this... IF we support a doctorate prg. w/o these tcm hospitals/ or 'real' clinical' experience, what is it going to do for our profession? If we think that a doctorate prg. w/o these are going to elevate our status, I wonder how? Personally I find it quite ridiculous. Why would I ever sign up for such a prg? for better clinical results? What would I get out of it? Furthermore, on the other side of the coin, what is the use a doctorate prg without some sort of serious research capabilities, if a research track is envisioned... Do any of the schools have a worthwhile proposal on how this is going to be done? I personally see this issue somewhat black & white. Without a major clinical experience or research capabilities then the prg should not exist. I wonder how ND and DC schools have done it for the last 30 years. Actually, the DO's just ended their clinical mentorship programs in the 80's, now requiring hospital residency. Until colleges, as an group, get their act together, or shall I say until the profession raises the consiousness of the schools so they get their act together (some will come more willingly, even welcomingly, than others), we will not have hospital based programs and especially we will not base our own hospitals, or theraputic spas (we do much better with chronic disease, yes?), and thus have clinical programs available. Vocations segregated into intellectual fiefdoms don't get hospitals, although they are sometimes allowed to enroll as minor participants. Fields of medicine that are run by professions do. And believe me, there is plenty of room for "diversity" in such places. Besides, it is an evolutionary process over the next decade. Who can say what will happen with our profession. We may get more than 10% of our profession in a paid membership in a professional organization some day. We may get all colleges to harbor student post grad support instead of disdain so as to raise quality of libraries, clincial facilities, research, and physical plants through donations and bequests. Jeez. We may even get our organization of colleges to support our professional organization instead of trying to undermine it so we could work together for everyone's benefit. Sorry. Dreaming again. DAvid Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Indeed - they are not accredited. They are approved by the State of Wisconsin, which, by the way will approve almost anything that applies for school status. And, in some states, including NY, a degree from unaccredited institutions such as Global is not recognized and is as illegal to use as the term M.D. (china) or any other such unearned degree. Marnae At 05:17 PM 8/8/2003 -0400, you wrote: At 6:23 PM +0000 8/8/03, facteau8 wrote: American global university is offering a ph.d correspondence course in oriental medicine. Where's the quality control?-- Surely they're not accredited by any reputable agency? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 10, 2003 Report Share Posted August 10, 2003 Ooops - I meant Wyoming, not Wisconsin. We called the State Board - it really takes very little to getsuch licensure and it means absolutely nothing. In NY, approval by the Board of Regents is actually recognized as accreditation because the Board of Regents is an approved accrediting body - although it means NOTHING about programmatic accreditation, and most schools do not use it to replace Regional Accreditation. But, this is not the case in Wyoming. Individuals in NY have actually been told by the state that they could not use the degree title that they earned from Global in their academic position. Marnae At 08:17 PM 8/8/2003 -0400, you wrote: < Emmanuel, Yes, I know that there are reputable on-line graduate programs, such as Phoenix. I wonder whether American Global is one of them. Rory> -- From their website: LICENSURE American Global University is fully licensed by the State of Wyoming under W.S. 21-2-401 through 21-2-407. ACCREDITATION American Global University is not accredited by the U.S. Department of Education, the Council on Higher Education Accreditation, or any other recognized accrediting agency. AFFILIATIONS See affiliations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2003 Report Share Posted August 11, 2003 At 02:38 PM 8/10/2003 -0400, you wrote: In a message dated 8/8/03 11:30:42 AM, writes: Yes.. this is an issue... My point is something like this... IF we support a doctorate prg. w/o these tcm hospitals/ or 'real' clinical' experience, what is it going to do for our profession? If we think that a doctorate prg. w/o these are going to elevate our status, I wonder how? Personally I find it quite ridiculous. Why would I ever sign up for such a prg? for better clinical results? What would I get out of it? Furthermore, on the other side of the coin, what is the use a doctorate prg without some sort of serious research capabilities, if a research track is envisioned... Do any of the schools have a worthwhile proposal on how this is going to be done? I personally see this issue somewhat black & white. Without a major clinical experience or research capabilities then the prg should not exist. I wonder how ND and DC schools have done it for the last 30 years. Actually, the DO's just ended their clinical mentorship programs in the 80's, now requiring hospital residency. Until colleges, as an group, get their act together, or shall I say until the profession raises the consiousness of the schools so they get their act together (some will come more willingly, even welcomingly, than others), we will not have hospital based programs and especially we will not base our own hospitals, or theraputic spas (we do much better with chronic disease, yes?), and thus have clinical programs available. Vocations segregated into intellectual fiefdoms don't get hospitals, although they are sometimes allowed to enroll as minor participants. Fields of medicine that are run by professions do. And believe me, there is plenty of room for " diversity " in such places. Besides, it is an evolutionary process over the next decade. Who can say what will happen with our profession. We may get more than 10% of our profession in a paid membership in a professional organization some day. We may get all colleges to harbor student post grad support instead of disdain so as to raise quality of libraries, clincial facilities, research, and physical plants through donations and bequests. Jeez. We may even get our organization of colleges to support our professional organization instead of trying to undermine it so we could work together for everyone's benefit. Sorry. Dreaming again. DAvid Molony Just wanted to support David's point about about the profession. We all tend to harp on " the schools " to get things done - but the onus really lies with us, the professionals. Yes, as institutions the schools have a certain amount of " clout " and a certain amount of money, but it has recently become very clear to me that a united, strong and involved professional community is perhaps even more important. Legislators etc. are much less interested in hearing from schools about issues than they are in hearing from individuals or professional associations who reperesent large numbers of individuals. I was speaking to a chiropractor recently who told me that as students one of the things that is drilled into their heads is the importance of joining professional associations and, in addition to joining, making YEARLY donations to support policital lobbying - this is how they are able to get the money to get the things that they want. Our paltry membership dues support the day to day running of an office etc., but little else. We must get out there and give of our time and our money if we want to move this profession forward. We cannot and should not keep depending on " the schools " for this. And, to continue my rant, we, as alumni, should be giving back to the schools. Endowments etc., come from alumni - not from current tuitions. We want our schools to support the faculty, to support the profession etc. etc. - well we need to support our schools - not keep putting them down. This is how they will improve! Just my rant for the day. Marnae Groups Sponsor Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2003 Report Share Posted August 11, 2003 At 2:55 PM -0400 8/11/03, Marnae Ergil wrote: >And, to continue my rant, we, as alumni, should be giving back to >the schools. Endowments etc., come from alumni - not from current >tuitions. We want our schools to support the faculty, to support >the profession etc. etc. - well we need to support our schools - not >keep putting them down. This is how they will improve! -- Right, but graduates are not simply going to send money to a school and say put this in an endowment fund. An alumni association needs to be set up as an independent entity, with non-profit status, so that donors can be assured that the money is properly spent, and that the association represents the views of the alumni, not just the school. I wonder how many of our schools have such an organization for their alumni. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 Dear Rory Intresting idea. Does any school have what you discribe below? > > Right, but graduates are not simply going to send money to a school > and say put this in an endowment fund. An alumni association needs to > be set up as an independent entity, with non-profit status, so that > donors can be assured that the money is properly spent, and that the > association represents the views of the alumni, not just the school. > I wonder how many of our schools have such an organization for their > alumni. > > Rory > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 In a message dated 8/10/03 3:53:01 PM, marnae writes: Indeed - they are not accredited. They are approved by the State of Wisconsin, which, by the way will approve almost anything that applies for school status. And, in some states, including NY, a degree from unaccredited institutions such as Global is not recognized and is as illegal to use as the term M.D. (china) or any other such unearned degree. It is Wyoming. Wisconsin would be better, but the truth is that they are trying to do it right the best they can, given our professions penchant for either complete yin or yang, that being overseas degrees of dubious quality, U.S. ones from CA and other places of similar effect, and folks who pretend that they know what a degree that does not yet exist should look like because they have some other degree from a "accepted" school. Global is trying to put together something that is useful tto those who attempt to learn under their guidance. It may not be great, but I have yet to see great, and they are trying, even with a funky Wyoming pedegree. I was considering it and decided not to take the program because I don't have the time. When my kids are older and the Nei Jing takes precedence over Harry Potter and Laurens van der Post. If NY state had a choice, they wouldn't accept anything from any other state in the country, because they are the only state owned by the Department of Education. Imagine a state run by the NEA... "Unearned degree" reads "unpaid for ($$) degree" in NY, does it not, and so what if taxpayers pay for a hefty %age? Do MD's graduate with a doctorate prior to residency? I know that graduates of the bachelor program in medicine (5 yr) from China can sit for the flex test, do their residency and be doctors. How does that work? My point is that politics trumps academia, but in NY academia at least partially owns politics, so it is not a state to use as a model, except for corruption. If you want a doc licensure title there, be prepared to spend a lot of money, and give the Dept of Education their fair share. Tony Soprano said they had a lot to teach him in one episode because he was being shaken down by Cornell. In any case, I applaud anyone who is trying to move our profession ahead. If they are left in the dust or become part of the final edifice that ends up settling when things solidify, only time will tell. The above only reflects my personal view, today. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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