Guest guest Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 It makes sense to consider line 2 and 3 at this point since what they say bears on the discussion of line 1 From Mitchell and Wiseman: Line 2: when in greater yang disease there is heat effusion, sweating, aversion to wind and a pulse that is moderate, it is called wind strike Line 3: greater yang disease, whether heat has effused or not, as long as there is aversion to cold, with generalized pain, retching counterflow and yin and yang pulses both tight, is called cold damage Of particular interest here is that: 1. heat effusion is the primary symptom listed for wind strike. According to Mitchell, this refers to palpable heat, not just subjective sensation. I find it interesting because the more excess pattern of cold damage does not require heat at the outset. Mitchell says this is because he extreme cold has blocked any escape of heat. 2. the aversion to wind specifically refers to an external source of draft. It does not linger after the cessation of a draft, while the cold of cold damage is not necessarily related to an external source of cold. This appears to be an important diagnostic distinction, which should be easily discerned upon careful questioning Question: Does ZZJ list the symptoms in his clauses in order of most important? Re: Sweating digression According to Dan Bensky at PCOM a few years back, one can use modified gui zhi tang for hot, sweaty patients who present with signs of cold vacuity. How would one go about distinguishing whether to use something like bu zhong yi tang in a patient who sweats easily versus gui zhi tang. Both patients would be deficient in presentation, yet exhibiting feverishness. The SHL gives no tongue signs but I note that the pulse of the gui zhi tang clause is quite different that given for BZYQT. I believe Dan modifed the formula by lowering the dose of gui zhi and adding huang qi to make a new formula. Of note is that the gui zhi tang pulse could be confused with a " normal pulse " . Has anyone seen such a patient? I have to run, so more later. for now, I will just point out the retching counterflow in clause 3. Also note the absence of respiratory symptoms in lines 1-3. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: > > I have to run, so more later. Hmmm. Perhaps this is not the right time of year to start this thread. schools out. Ken and Z'ev are in communicado this week. Bob Flaws is out of town and lots of others are " on vacation " of some sort. I could keep going on by myself, but I think that would waste this oportunity. So unless anyone objects, I will re-post these messages on the SHL after labor day. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- > Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Sure, BUT surely in a sea of ideas and contemplation there must be more then those you mention below (no offence anyone:-) I indeed remember one of Ken's letter, about being in a airport and the vast number of people... Maybe this is why Volker once said " apparently " we in the " west " are not in the first generation of Chinese medicine although of course Dan bensky, Ken, Ted, Z'ev and of course Rey (where are you?) are forming the first generation. The women as always present but silence... And if there are no others by implication of your letter (I may be wrong) then that is tragic indeed... I must say that coming home to Guatemala have been a strange experience indeed with regard to Chinese medicine. We need a lot of real help, like that given by Paradigm publication and Jim Ramholz. It seams that Chinese medicine (Korea Vietnam, Japan and Taiwan and CHINA are under represented...) BTW, JIM and Margine and Wiseburn(?) and the very stern Alon as well as Chou (apart from those above, not to mention the physiology man ought to come to Guatemala) Not to forget: Robert (Japanese style is really needed) snakeoilworks when?) Doug in bejing... Matiuew.... We sincerely need sincere help here in Guatemala So maybe consider this your next holiday destination... Marco Bergh in Guatemala - " " < Saturday, August 16, 2003 12:54 PM Re: SHL-line 1-3 > , " " <@i...> > wrote: > > > > > > I have to run, so more later. > > > Hmmm. Perhaps this is not the right time of year to start this thread. schools > out. Ken and Z'ev are in communicado this week. Bob Flaws is out of town and > lots of others are " on vacation " of some sort. I could keep going on by myself, > but I think that would waste this oportunity. So unless anyone objects, I will > re-post these messages on the SHL after labor day. > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > voice: > > fax: > > > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- > > Albert Einstein > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > Sure, > > BUT surely in a sea of ideas and contemplation there must be more then those > you mention below (no offence anyone:-) Marco You are so right. I should add that many esteemed but lesser known faculty are also on vacation this month. And indeed, I wish more women chimed in, especially since my female students have far out numbered my males. And are at least as smart. And I miss hearing from all of you. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 , " " <@i...> wrote: It makes sense to consider line 2 and 3 at this point since what they say bears on the discussion of line 1 From Mitchell and Wiseman: Line 2: when in greater yang disease there is heat effusion, sweating, aversion to wind and a pulse that is moderate, it is called wind strike Line 3: greater yang disease, whether heat has effused or not, as long as there is aversion to cold, with generalized pain, retching counterflow and yin and yang pulses both tight, is called cold damage Of particular interest here is that: 1. heat effusion is the primary symptom listed for wind strike. According to Mitchell, this refers to palpable heat, not just subjective sensation. I find it interesting because the more excess pattern of cold damage does not require heat at the outset. Mitchell says this is because he extreme cold has blocked any escape of heat. 2. the aversion to wind specifically refers to an external source of draft. It does not linger after the cessation of a draft, while the cold of cold damage is not necessarily related to an external source of cold. This appears to be an important diagnostic distinction, which should be easily discerned upon careful questioning Question: Does ZZJ list the symptoms in his clauses in order of most important? Re: Sweating digression According to Dan Bensky at PCOM a few years back, one can use modified gui zhi tang for hot, sweaty patients who present with signs of cold vacuity. How would one go about distinguishing whether to use something like bu zhong yi tang in a patient who sweats easily versus gui zhi tang. Both patients would be deficient in presentation, yet exhibiting feverishness. The SHL gives no tongue signs but I note that the pulse of the gui zhi tang clause is quite different that given for BZYQT. I believe Dan modifed the formula by lowering the dose of gui zhi and adding huang qi to make a new formula. Of note is that the gui zhi tang pulse could be confused with a " normal pulse " . Has anyone seen such a patient? I have to run, so more later. for now, I will just point out the retching counterflow in clause 3. Also note the absence of respiratory symptoms in lines 1-3. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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