Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Yang Jin-ying, in issue #6, 2003 of Jiang Xi Zhong Yi Yao (Jiangxi & Medicinals), presents a case history where he treats a 30 year-old woman with " toothache (ya tong) " with the single ingredient of Fructus Psoraleae Corylifoliae (Bu Gu Zhi, Po Gu Zhi). Treatment in this case consisted of stir-frying till black 50 grams of Bu Gu Zhi and then grinding it into a powder. This powder was applied regularly to the gums for one week, after which all the symptoms were better. After two weeks, there was no more pain and no more bleeding from the gums. The patient's body was thin and she had low back soreness and lack of strength. Her tongue was pale and fat with thin, white fur, and her pulse was deep and fine. Her gums were puffy and painful and chewing resulted in bleeding. Previous treatment had not been effective. B & G make no mention of toothache or gum disease in their materia medica. Anyone care to comment? What do people think the pattern discrimination was? Anyone want to supply any evidence about this usage? I think it'd be great if we exchanged more information and ideas about Chinese herbal medicine. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Bob - Thanks for sending me to my bookshelf. Xu & Wang mention modern research which indicates Buguzhi stops bleeding(p548). The blackening would tend to emphasize the styptic effect. The pattern discrimination may have been Kidney Yang Xu, from the fat tongue, deep and fine pulse, weakness, and low back soreness, and the vacuity nature of the sx, toothache w/puffy gums, bleeding when she would chew. The pain may have been due to Yang vacuity (insufficient Yang to ensure free flow) and the Kidney's association with the teeth may have been further evidence. The warm nature and acrid flavor of Buguzhi could have been effective in restoring free flow, while its restraining properties and the blood-stanching effect of blackening could have been effectve in stopping bleeding. You didn't mention what the ineffective previous treatments were. I could be totally wrong, but i'd take a whack at it. robert hayden , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Yang Jin-ying, in issue #6, 2003 of Jiang Xi Zhong Yi Yao (Jiangxi > & Medicinals), presents a case history where he > treats a 30 year-old woman with " toothache (ya tong) " with the single > ingredient of Fructus Psoraleae Corylifoliae (Bu Gu Zhi, Po Gu Zhi). > Treatment in this case consisted of stir-frying till black 50 grams of > Bu Gu Zhi and then grinding it into a powder. This powder was applied > regularly to the gums for one week, after which all the symptoms were > better. After two weeks, there was no more pain and no more bleeding > from the gums. The patient's body was thin and she had low back > soreness and lack of strength. Her tongue was pale and fat with thin, > white fur, and her pulse was deep and fine. Her gums were puffy and > painful and chewing resulted in bleeding. Previous treatment had not > been effective. > > B & G make no mention of toothache or gum disease in their materia > medica. Anyone care to comment? What do people think the pattern > discrimination was? Anyone want to supply any evidence about this > usage? I think it'd be great if we exchanged more information and > ideas about Chinese herbal medicine. > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 At 1:08 AM +0000 9/3/03, kampo36 wrote: >Xu & Wang mention modern research which indicates Buguzhi stops >bleeding(p548). The blackening would tend to emphasize the styptic >effect. The pattern discrimination may have been Kidney Yang Xu, from >the fat tongue, deep and fine pulse, weakness, and low back soreness, >and the vacuity nature of the sx, toothache w/puffy gums, bleeding >when she would chew. The pain may have been due to Yang vacuity >(insufficient Yang to ensure free flow) and the Kidney's association >with the teeth may have been further evidence. The warm nature and >acrid flavor of Buguzhi could have been effective in restoring free >flow, while its restraining properties and the blood-stanching effect >of blackening could have been effectve in stopping bleeding. -- Robert and Bob, I'd got to about the same place as this when your post appeared -- I agree about the pattern. I'm still left with questions. The Wang & Xu citation for stop bleeding was a modern (not traditional) use reported by a maternity hospital, so as a rationale for bleeding gums it seems a little tenuous, even though the pattern is agreed. However, I also find a reference for a modern use, not charred, as a topical for skin regeneration " external use promotes the production of melanin. " (Hong-yen Hsu, Oriental Materia Medica, page 573). Whether this has any relevance to this case, I don't know. I'd love to know how the author came up with this treatment. By the way, speaking of Jiang Xi, I spent an excellent couple of weeks at Jiang Xi TCM Hospital last October. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 , Rory Kerr <rory.kerr@w...> wrote: > I'm still left with questions. The Wang & Xu citation for stop > bleeding was a modern (not traditional) use reported by a maternity > hospital, so as a rationale for bleeding gums it seems a little > tenuous, even though the pattern is agreed. However, I also find a > reference for a modern use, not charred, as a topical for skin > regeneration " external use promotes the production of melanin. " > (Hong-yen Hsu, Oriental Materia Medica, page 573). Whether this has > any relevance to this case, I don't know. I'd love to know how the > author came up with this treatment. > LOL, yes, the reference was a little strained, but it was all I could find at the time. Perhaps because Buguzhi also enters the Spleen it might shore up the blood-containing function a little better than some other Yang-supplementing medicinals... stepping further out onto the limb here... robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 I think it'd be great if we exchanged more information and > ideas about Chinese herbal medicine. > > Bob I agree, I personally am a bit bored with the past new-age mumbo jumbo, But that is just me... I am not the moderator, but as a member I want to voice this opinion... Sorry... furthermore, acupuncturing and taking the pulse of trees is nice, but this is a herb/ TCM discussion group... -Jason 'no-herb-name' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Here here! I also think it would be great if we exchanged more information on Chinese herbal medicine. Kip - Bob Flaws Tuesday, September 02, 2003 3:03 PM Bu Gu Zhi & Toothache Yang Jin-ying, in issue #6, 2003 of Jiang Xi Zhong Yi Yao (Jiangxi & Medicinals), presents a case history where he treats a 30 year-old woman with " toothache (ya tong) " with the single ingredient of Fructus Psoraleae Corylifoliae (Bu Gu Zhi, Po Gu Zhi). Treatment in this case consisted of stir-frying till black 50 grams of Bu Gu Zhi and then grinding it into a powder. This powder was applied regularly to the gums for one week, after which all the symptoms were better. After two weeks, there was no more pain and no more bleeding from the gums. The patient's body was thin and she had low back soreness and lack of strength. Her tongue was pale and fat with thin, white fur, and her pulse was deep and fine. Her gums were puffy and painful and chewing resulted in bleeding. Previous treatment had not been effective. B & G make no mention of toothache or gum disease in their materia medica. Anyone care to comment? What do people think the pattern discrimination was? Anyone want to supply any evidence about this usage? I think it'd be great if we exchanged more information and ideas about Chinese herbal medicine. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 05:36 AM, Rory Kerr wrote: > However, I also find a > reference for a modern use, (for Bu Gu Zhi) not charred, as a topical > for skin > regeneration " external use promotes the production of melanin. " > (Hong-yen Hsu, Oriental Materia Medica, page 573). Whether this has > any relevance to this case, I don't know. I kind of doubt it. This application of Bu Gu Zhi is talked about in the dermatology texts as a treatment for vitiligo. Its a topical application that also requires exposure to ultra-violet light (or sunlight) to generate the melanin. -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 All, Oops! Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Sorry, I should not have written Fructus Psoraleae Corylifoliae (Bu Gu Zhi). The article was about Rhizoma Drynariae (Gu Sui Bu). Somehow I got these confused. B & G does say that Gu Sui Bu is for the treatment of toothache and bleeding gums. So not as interesting as I had first thought. Nevertheless, hopefully, my posting will pull some of us back to Chinese herbal medicine. As for the pattern discrimination, Dr. Yang categorized it as " kidney yang debility detriment with vacuity fire flaming upward. " Dr. Yang cites an unspecified " ancient person " as saying: " Gu Sui Bu is able to harden and secure the gums, boost the essence marrow, dispel toxic qi within the bones, and stop aching and pain. For handling all sorts of tooth stirring [or movement, i.e., looseness], several applications [and the teeth] will be set up beautifully and the movement will not recur. " Too bad Dr. Yang doesn't identify the ancient person. Since I misidentified the medicinal, my self-imposed penance is to translate some of the entries from the Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian on Gu Sui Bu. Functions & indications: Supplements the kidneys, quickens the blood, and stops bleeding. Treats kidney vacuity enduring diarrhea and low back pain, wind damp impediment pain, toothache, tinnitus, strikes and falls, bone injury, appendicitis, and chicken eyes [corns] The Yao Xing Lun (Treatise on Medicinal Natures) states: " Governs toxic qi within the bones, wind blood aching and pain, the five taxations and six extremes, mouth hand not restrained, upper [burner] hot-lower [burner] chilled. " The Ri Hua Zi Ben Cao (Ri Hua-zi's Materia Medica) says: " Treats malign sores, festering flesh, kills worms. " The Kai Bao Ben Cao (Open Treasure Materia Medica) says: " Mainly breaks the blood, stops bleeding, supplements injuries and fractures. " The Ben Cao Zheng (Correct Materia Medica) says: " Treats evil toxins within the bones, wind heat aching and pain, and external contraction of wind dampness resulting in biltateral foot wilting, weakness, aching, and pain. " The Ben Cao Shu (Materia Medica Narration) says: " Treats low back pain and movable impediment, wind stroke, crane knee, and cramping qi conditions, diarrhea, strangury, seminal emission, and anal desertion. " Sorry again for any confusion I caused. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > As for the pattern discrimination, Dr. Yang categorized it as " kidney > yang debility detriment with vacuity fire flaming upward. " Interesting in that there didn't seem to be any heat signs except possibly the bleeding -- but that was when she would chew, which made me think of qi/yang vacuity. > > Sorry again for any confusion I caused. > > Bob good to know you're not infallible robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 Re. " I think it'd be great if we exchanged more information and ideas about Chinese herbal medicine. " I agree as well. As a newbie to this group (and with a VERY limited knowledge of Chinese herbology) I am interested primarily in discussion of Chinese herbal medicine. It is interesting to note that Bu Gu Zhi is frequently used in Die Da ( " hit and fall " ) medicine (or traumatology medicine) for bone breaks sustained in martial arts practice. It's literal meaning, according to Bensky and Gamble is " mender of shattered bones. " It is frequently combined with Gou Ji and Xu Duan to help heal injured bones and sinews. Gu Sui Bu is also used for this purpose. Before Bob Flaws' correction re. Bu Gu Zhi I was thinking that, as a Kidney Yang tonifying herb, it probably has benefits for the the teeth as well as for the bones. My best guess was that it may be used for loose teeth due to Kidney Yang deficiency, and/or tooth pain that goes deep to the jaw bone. " Then " Gu Sui Bu " pops up as the name of the intended herb and B & G confirms both uses: (1) for broken bones and (2) for toothache. Whereas Bu Gu Zhi enters the Kidney and Spleen meridians, Gu Sui Bu enters the Kidney and Liver meridians: if we think of a tooth as a quasi-joint, then is this why Gu Sui Bu is used for toothache (and not Bu Gu Zhi)? I am curious as to whether this is the way one should start thinking about using herbs. BTW, is there going to be a continuation of the discussion of the Shan Han Lun? My teacher suggested that I begin my formal study of herbs with this text. Best, Stephen Lamade _______________ Need more e-mail storage? Get 10MB with Hotmail Extra Storage. http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 , " Stephen Lamade " < lhommedieu@h...> wrote: > > BTW, is there going to be a continuation of the discussion of the Shan Han > Lun? My teacher suggested that I begin my formal study of herbs with this > text. That is underway, though no one has posted a response yet. I will post more on it this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 At 11:26 AM +0000 9/5/03, wrote: >That is underway, though no one has posted a response yet. I will post more >on it this weekend. -- I'm not sure what's going on here. A couple (or more) weeks ago you started this discussion, and there were responses, including mine. What's up? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 At 9:20 PM +0000 9/3/03, Bob Flaws wrote: >The article was about >Rhizoma Drynariae (Gu Sui Bu). Somehow I got these confused. B & G >does say that Gu Sui Bu is for the treatment of toothache and bleeding >gums. So not as interesting as I had first thought. Nevertheless, >hopefully, my posting will pull some of us back to Chinese herbal >medicine. > >As for the pattern discrimination, Dr. Yang categorized it as " kidney >yang debility detriment with vacuity fire flaming upward. " -- Bob, Actually this is a little encouraging. Before you posted your correction, and starting with the bare facts of the case, I followed my normal procedure when researching a case, including index searching, and ended up with gu sui bu as the single medicinal of choice. So, your case report increases my confidence that our available texts can get us to the same ballpark as our Chinese colleagues. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 At 1:06 PM -0400 9/5/03, Rory Kerr wrote: >At 11:26 AM +0000 9/5/03, wrote: >>That is underway, though no one has posted a response yet. I will post more >>on it this weekend. >-- > > >I'm not sure what's going on here. A couple (or more) weeks ago you >started this discussion, and there were responses, including mine. >What's up? > >Rory === This is a little confusing, but, of course, the above discussion refers to Shang han Lun, not bu gu zhi. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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