Guest guest Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 I will not define here the term " spagyric " as those who know what it means will understand this post. In a nutshell, herbs with given tastes and temperatures will respond to more or less the same extraction methods to optimze their properties. I have worked most of the western herbs described by Dr. Holmes in the blue books. In most cases, his assessment of their properties is more or less the same as in general spagyric traditions. I have worked a fair number of chinese herbs in a spagyric fashion. They respond much the same as their western cousins with similar properties. As an example, Coptis sinensis extracts more or less the same way as goldenseal. The quality of western herbal tinctures is gerally so-so. For example, echinacea's optimal extraction menstrum is 70% alcohol. Anything else results in leaving most of the phytochemicals in the marc. The useful goldenseal coumpounds are not water soluble from the root. I could go on but my feeling is that Dr. Holmes books are well written and the discomfort with them stems from something else than the " properties " of the herbs described. Cheers, Dr. G. _______________ Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95. https://broadband.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 There is a lot of useful information in the Holmes books about the history and traditional Western use of the herbs, but the Chinese 'energetics' are made up and not clinically useful. They are not based on the Chinese medical literature, but the author's speculations. If the book was marketed as the author's personal impressions of the herbs from a Chinese medical perspective rather than a textbook, much of the discomfort would be relieved, I think. Holme's " Jade Remedies' is more successful in that regard (as a text on Western approaches to the use of Chinese herbs). On Tuesday, September 9, 2003, at 11:15 AM, busy alchimiste wrote: > I could go on > but my feeling is that Dr. Holmes books are well written and the > discomfort > with them stems from something else than the " properties " of the herbs > described. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 , " " wrote: There is a lot of useful information in the Holmes books about the history and traditional Western use of the herbs, but the Chinese 'energetics' are made up and not clinically useful. They are not based on the Chinese medical literature, but the author's speculations. >>> Z'ev: Do you know of anyone who has been able to verify Holmes' Chinese energetics? If so, how did they try to do it? Perhaps you should have an herb tasting round table at the next CHA conference to settle these matters. Those who have done a lot of qi gong should be able to tell which meridians an herb goes to. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 It is not so much a matter of confirming channel, flavor, or temperature for me (in Holmes book). As Bob Flaws has pointed out, sometimes he is on the mark, sometimes not. His claims as to actions and indications (functions and uses) are problematic. For example, for Sassafras: " clears stasis, seeps water, promotes urination and cleansing (what?), stimulates and dredges the kidneys, benefits the skin and expels stones " . And that is just one function! Another example: Elecampagne root: " increases the qi and replenishes deficiency; benefits the hypothalamus (!), enhances immune potential, restores the lungs and generates strength. " Chinese conceptions of channel and viscera/bowel are constantly mixed up with biomedical Western organ concepts in these desecriptions. It is quite confusing. On the other hand, this book is already 14 years old, I think it would be better if rewritten now. Few books from that era have stood the test of time. I think an herb tasting round table would be nice, but I'd prefer to see it done in a rural environment with raw fresh herbs being used, if possible. On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 05:01 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > Do you know of anyone who has been able to verify Holmes' Chinese > energetics? If so, how did they try to do it? > > Perhaps you should have an herb tasting round table at the next CHA > conference to settle these matters. Those who have done a lot of qi > gong should be able to tell which meridians an herb goes to. > > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2003 Report Share Posted September 10, 2003 , " " wrote: > I think an herb tasting round table would be nice, but I'd prefer to see it done in a rural environment with raw fresh herbs being used, if possible. >>> It would be interesting to see how much of the classical information about herbs can be verified and how much simply gets passed along. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > It is not so much a matter of confirming channel, flavor, or > temperature for me (in Holmes book). As Bob Flaws has pointed out, > sometimes he is on the mark, sometimes not. His claims as to actions > and indications (functions and uses) are problematic. For example, for > Sassafras: " clears stasis, seeps water, promotes urination and > cleansing (what?), stimulates and dredges the kidneys, benefits the > skin and expels stones " . And that is just one function! Another > example: Elecampagne root: " increases the qi and replenishes > deficiency; benefits the hypothalamus (!), enhances immune potential, > restores the lungs and generates strength. " Z'ev Does he make any use of combinations or does he imply that the herbs do all the functions on their own... DOes he site western research to back up his biomedical claims? Just curious, I never bought those books, they always seemed silly to me. (not the concept - just the books) -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 The Holmes book is basically on single herbs. There is little or no research. But remember, this book is over 14 years old, 'the dark ages' of Western TCM texts. You might be interested in Jeremy Ross' new book " Combining Western Herbs and " which has ample research and proposed combinations of herbs. Some interesting stuff in there. On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 07:07 AM, wrote: > , " " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: >> It is not so much a matter of confirming channel, flavor, or >> temperature for me (in Holmes book). As Bob Flaws has pointed out, >> sometimes he is on the mark, sometimes not. His claims as to > actions >> and indications (functions and uses) are problematic. For example, > for >> Sassafras: " clears stasis, seeps water, promotes urination and >> cleansing (what?), stimulates and dredges the kidneys, benefits the >> skin and expels stones " . And that is just one function! Another >> example: Elecampagne root: " increases the qi and replenishes >> deficiency; benefits the hypothalamus (!), enhances immune > potential, >> restores the lungs and generates strength. " > > > Z'ev > > Does he make any use of combinations or does he imply that the herbs > do all the functions on their own... DOes he site western research > to back up his biomedical claims? Just curious, I never bought those > books, they always seemed silly to me. (not the concept - just the > books) > > -Jason > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > The Holmes book is basically on single herbs. There is little or no > research. But remember, this book is over 14 years old, 'the dark > ages' of Western TCM texts. the book is filled with gems, but ultimately does not achieve its goal. while the subject interests me, I don't really find it very important clinically. we live in a global environment and there is no reason western herbs or local herbs work better than chinese herbs. people do not adapt to their environments in that way. if they are damp, then herbs that transform damp help them. it does matter where they grow. the inherent risk of this subject is that one will ignore tried and true formulas in favor of speculation. in addition, there is no way to determine the properties of combining herbs from existing western texts. that will take hundreds of years. I find this subject useful mainly in that it give me cursory information on herbs my patients already take, not to guide my prescribing. At most, I might use singles this way in addition to a TCM formula but never instead of. An example might be using saw palmetto in a prostate patient. research shows it helps like 80% of patients or more without any side effects. So on one hand, I might feel comfortable using it with a TCM balanced rx as a pure symptomatic regardless of its properties or ideally determine what pattern it applies best to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Undoubtedly, you are correct about the importance of using pattern differentiation, and choosing medicinals accordingly. That is common sense, and professional protocol. I also occasionally use singles in the way you describe. However, I do believe we need to begin to make the effort to find local species of Chinese medicinals, incorporate local medicines in our practice, and begin to develop prescriptions accordingly, no matter how long it takes. We have to be prepared for the vagaries of global trade, for one. We could be cut off from our supply of Chinese herbs at any time. Xu Da-cun talks about regional qi in his Yi xue yuan liu lun. He states that herbal medicinals have their strongest qi in their original environment. I would say further that harmonizing with regional qi is important to our health. Using locally grown foods AND medicinals contributes to harmonizing with our environment, which allows us to 'flow' with seasonal changes, and be connected with the natural world around us. I am never more happy than when I am wild crafting herbs. Perhaps, you'd like to do an herb walk with me some time? On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 08:30 AM, wrote: >> > > the book is filled with gems, but ultimately does not achieve its > goal. while the > subject interests me, I don't really find it very important > clinically. we live in > a global environment and there is no reason western herbs or local > herbs work > better than chinese herbs. people do not adapt to their environments > in that > way. if they are damp, then herbs that transform damp help them. it > does > matter where they grow. the inherent risk of this subject is that one > will > ignore tried and true formulas in favor of speculation. in addition, > there is no > way to determine the properties of combining herbs from existing > western > texts. that will take hundreds of years. I find this subject useful > mainly in > that it give me cursory information on herbs my patients already take, > not to > guide my prescribing. At most, I might use singles this way in > addition to a > TCM formula but never instead of. An example might be using saw > palmetto > in a prostate patient. research shows it helps like 80% of patients > or more > without any side effects. So on one hand, I might feel comfortable > using it > with a TCM balanced rx as a pure symptomatic regardless of its > properties or > ideally determine what pattern it applies best to. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I took one of Jeremy's earlier 'Chinese energetics of Western Herbs' classes a couple years ago. He was into using tinctures, which facilitated doing a group tasting of several different herbs. As we know, some books may say an herb has this taste or temperature and another says it has that taste and temperature etc etc. He passed samples around and had us record what we thought the properties were. Some would say warm and others would say cool. His hypothesis was that there is a special temperature quality that was 'adaptive'. For people whom needed the cool properties, the herbs tasted cool, and visa versa. I know he's been working on his book for a long time and he's a great practitioner, so I'm looking forward to seeing his work! I guess the point is that the properties of herbs are not set in stone, so above all, use your own judgement! Geoff > __________ > > Message: 5 > Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:40:17 -0700 > " " <zrosenbe > Re: Re: Western traditions, chinese herbs > > The Holmes book is basically on single herbs. There is little or no > research. But remember, this book is over 14 years old, 'the dark > ages' of Western TCM texts. > > You might be interested in Jeremy Ross' new book " Combining Western > Herbs and " which has ample research and proposed > combinations of herbs. Some interesting stuff in there. > > > On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 07:07 AM, wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 I know Jeremy Ross was working on this at one time. David Molony In a message dated 9/10/03 9:12:00 PM, zrosenbe writes: > It is not so much a matter of confirming channel, flavor, or > temperature for me (in Holmes book). As Bob Flaws has pointed out, > sometimes he is on the mark, sometimes not. His claims as to actions > and indications (functions and uses) are problematic. For example, for > Sassafras: " clears stasis, seeps water, promotes urination and > cleansing (what?), stimulates and dredges the kidneys, benefits the > skin and expels stones " . And that is just one function! Another > example: Elecampagne root: " increases the qi and replenishes > deficiency; benefits the hypothalamus (!), enhances immune potential, > restores the lungs and generates strength. " Chinese conceptions of > channel and viscera/bowel are constantly mixed up with biomedical > Western organ concepts in these desecriptions. It is quite confusing. > > On the other hand, this book is already 14 years old, I think it would > be better if rewritten now. Few books from that era have stood the > test of time. > > I think an herb tasting round table would be nice, but I'd prefer to > see it done in a rural environment with raw fresh herbs being used, if > possible. > > > On Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 05:01 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > > > Do you know of anyone who has been able to verify Holmes' Chinese > > energetics? If so, how did they try to do it? > > > > Perhaps you should have an herb tasting round table at the next CHA > > conference to settle these matters. Those who have done a lot of qi > > gong should be able to tell which meridians an herb goes to. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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