Guest guest Posted September 11, 2003 Report Share Posted September 11, 2003 >subject interests me, I don't really find it very important clinically. we live in >a global environment and there is no reason western herbs or local herbs work >better than chinese herbs. I do not believe anyone is suggesting, in general terms, that Western herbs work better than Chinese herbs ('though I have heard Chinese people say that about Chinese herbs). There is, however, herbs in the West that may do a job better than their Chinese counterpart. Leonurus cardiaca is a great example. In my opinion it is superior to any of the species used in TCM. I come to this conclusion from both research and clinical usage. Further, although we live in a global environment, the expense and use of resources to transport plants around the world is questionable and debatable. The Chinese have always imported herbs into their materia medica. American Ginseng and Corn Silk from the Americas, Fennel from Southern Europe, and Myrrh from the Middle East are the first that come to mind. I see this movement as just another transformation, in a long line of transformations, within the field of TCM. >the inherent risk of this subject is that one will >ignore tried and true formulas in favor of speculation. Don't you think that the greats like Li Shih-shen and those before him " speculated " . If the ball is to roll, it must be pushed, pulled, or is some way coxed along its path. That being said, I would not support anyone using their patients as " lab rats " by ignoring their objective, which is to assist the patient in their healing process. >in addition, there is no >way to determine the properties of combining herbs from existing western >texts. that will take hundreds of years. " No way " How did you come to this conclusion? >An example might be using saw palmetto >in a prostate patient. research shows it helps like 80% of patients or more >without any side effects. So on one hand, I might feel comfortable using it >with a TCM balanced rx as a pure symptomatic regardless of its properties or >ideally determine what pattern it applies best to. 80% is good but if you knew the functions of the medicinal it would help you to get closer to 100%. Simply using herbs as " a pure symptomatic " is not particularly professional herbology and except is extreme circumstances (i.e. pain), I think, is frowned on by most teachers. thomas Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture acupuncture and herbal information " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 , " " @e...> wrote: > > > >subject interests me, I don't really find it very important clinically. we > live in > >a global environment and there is no reason western herbs or local herbs > work > >better than chinese herbs. > > I do not believe anyone is suggesting, in general terms, that Western herbs > work better than Chinese herbs ('though I have heard Chinese people say that > about Chinese herbs). There is, however, herbs in the West that may do a job > better than their Chinese counterpart. Leonurus cardiaca is a great example. > In my opinion it is superior to any of the species used in TCM. I come to > this conclusion from both research and clinical usage. > Further, although we live in a global environment, the expense and use of > resources to transport plants around the world is questionable and > debatable. The Chinese have always imported herbs into their materia medica. > American Ginseng and Corn Silk from the Americas, Fennel from Southern > Europe, and Myrrh from the Middle East are the first that come to mind. I > see this movement as just another transformation, in a long line of > transformations, within the field of TCM. > > >the inherent risk of this subject is that one will > >ignore tried and true formulas in favor of speculation. > > Don't you think that the greats like Li Shih-shen and those before him > " speculated " . If the ball is to roll, it must be pushed, pulled, or is some > way coxed along its path. That being said, I would not support anyone using > their patients as " lab rats " by ignoring their objective, which is to assist > the patient in their healing process. How does one test their purely theoretical ideas of how western herbs work in a Chinese medical setting without using it on their patients? Furthermore, I think this discussion exemplifies the difference between the western and eastern mind. In the west we think that if we understand what Echinacea does, then it is simply, we put it into the clinic/ formulas and that is that. In the east the concept of what an herb does in found in relation to the other herbs, and this is how its functions are defined. This thought process is key, and illustrates major difference between eastern and western herbalism. AS far a lishizhen, let us not forget the long tradition of not only theory, but herbalogy that preceded him, verbal and written. We just do not have that in the west. There is such thing as rooted speculation, and un-educated speculation… I question any westerner who is classifying western medicinals for Chinese clinical use that a) does not have 30+ years of experience, b) reads Chinese, c) has an incredibly solid foundation in CM, not some training from some friend in the 70's. This is outrageous. Lishizhen, has not only the culture & language (and not forget, the Chinese mind) behind him, but rigorous study of the past, and intense CM understanding... Also how do we know a western herb is better than its eastern counterpart? What does that mean? It does the same functions but better?… Usually western herb counterparts, have different properties – maybe slight, but different. If this is so, how does one know how this will act in combination with other Chinese herbs. This is key. These combinations have taken 1000's of years to understand, not 20 years of 1 or 2 people's personal experience. I am quite skeptical. > > >in addition, there is no > >way to determine the properties of combining herbs from existing western > >texts. that will take hundreds of years. > I agree! - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 This is very well said, Jason. However, I'd also point out that much of traditional herbalism in the west, specifically Greco-Arabic medicine used prescriptions and combinations of medicinals, not simples. The simples trend is relatively modern, i.e. post-Galenic medicine. On Friday, September 12, 2003, at 06:00 PM, wrote: > In the east the concept of > what an herb does in found in relation to the other herbs, and this > is how its functions are defined. This thought process is key, and > illustrates major difference between eastern and western herbalism. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hi All, In regards to Leonurus cardiaca being superior to species in commerce in China, it seems to me that this could have as much to do with degradation of herbacious matter over a lengthy transit time into the market place. I think that one arguement that is fair to make in regards to quality, particularly of aerial portions of plants and to a lesser degree roots, is that if I pull it out of my garden for use and prepare it properly it will probably work better than something that took 6 months or even 3 to get into the consumers hands. I am grateful to have had some training in basic pharmocognosy (thanks Thomas, we can call it that right?) and am interested in what is being taught in other TCM schools in regards to evaluating herb quality? Ben Zappin < wrote: , " " @e...> wrote: > > > >subject interests me, I don't really find it very important clinically. we > live in > >a global environment and there is no reason western herbs or local herbs > work > >better than chinese herbs. > > I do not believe anyone is suggesting, in general terms, that Western herbs > work better than Chinese herbs ('though I have heard Chinese people say that > about Chinese herbs). There is, however, herbs in the West that may do a job > better than their Chinese counterpart. Leonurus cardiaca is a great example. > In my opinion it is superior to any of the species used in TCM. I come to > this conclusion from both research and clinical usage. > Further, although we live in a global environment, the expense and use of > resources to transport plants around the world is questionable and > debatable. The Chinese have always imported herbs into their materia medica. > American Ginseng and Corn Silk from the Americas, Fennel from Southern > Europe, and Myrrh from the Middle East are the first that come to mind. I > see this movement as just another transformation, in a long line of > transformations, within the field of TCM. > > >the inherent risk of this subject is that one will > >ignore tried and true formulas in favor of speculation. > > Don't you think that the greats like Li Shih-shen and those before him > " speculated " . If the ball is to roll, it must be pushed, pulled, or is some > way coxed along its path. That being said, I would not support anyone using > their patients as " lab rats " by ignoring their objective, which is to assist > the patient in their healing process. How does one test their purely theoretical ideas of how western herbs work in a Chinese medical setting without using it on their patients? Furthermore, I think this discussion exemplifies the difference between the western and eastern mind. In the west we think that if we understand what Echinacea does, then it is simply, we put it into the clinic/ formulas and that is that. In the east the concept of what an herb does in found in relation to the other herbs, and this is how its functions are defined. This thought process is key, and illustrates major difference between eastern and western herbalism. AS far a lishizhen, let us not forget the long tradition of not only theory, but herbalogy that preceded him, verbal and written. We just do not have that in the west. There is such thing as rooted speculation, and un-educated speculation… I question any westerner who is classifying western medicinals for Chinese clinical use that a) does not have 30+ years of experience, b) reads Chinese, c) has an incredibly solid foundation in CM, not some training from some friend in the 70's. This is outrageous. Lishizhen, has not only the culture & language (and not forget, the Chinese mind) behind him, but rigorous study of the past, and intense CM understanding... Also how do we know a western herb is better than its eastern counterpart? What does that mean? It does the same functions but better?… Usually western herb counterparts, have different properties – maybe slight, but different. If this is so, how does one know how this will act in combination with other Chinese herbs. This is key. These combinations have taken 1000's of years to understand, not 20 years of 1 or 2 people's personal experience. I am quite skeptical. > > >in addition, there is no > >way to determine the properties of combining herbs from existing western > >texts. that will take hundreds of years. > I agree! - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 I'm glad you mention that, Mr. Zappin. It's been my experience, as someone who has been growing Chinese herbs since 1991, that the herbs we receive from China of the medicines that are employing above- ground portions of the plants are generally very poor in quality compared to what they would be if they were only a few months old or less. Reading some of Michael Moore's information about how one should not be using some leafy local western herbs if they are older than a year or two, it brings to mind what I have been seeing and feeling with the material from China all too often. I have the sense the material from China may have been sitting in warehouses for too long and/or is over-dried from the beginning, damaging/losing some (and in some cases probably most) of the " Qi " of the herbs. Robert Newman , Ben Zappin <benzappin> wrote: > Hi All, > In regards to Leonurus cardiaca being superior to species in commerce in China, it > seems to me that this could have as much to do with degradation of herbacious matter > over a lengthy transit time into the market place. I think that one arguement that is fair > to make in regards to quality, particularly of aerial portions of plants and to a lesser > degree roots, is that if I pull it out of my garden for use and prepare it properly it will > probably work better than something that took 6 months or even 3 to get into the > consumers hands. > > I am grateful to have had some training in basic pharmocognosy (thanks Thomas, we > can call it that right?) and am interested in what is being taught in other TCM schools in > regards to evaluating herb quality? > > Ben Zappin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 The quality of 'above-ground' material will depend on the supplier/importer. I've seen some very high quality 'above-ground' stuff through such suppliers as Spring Wind, and especially the warehouse where Emmanuel Segmen works. On Wednesday, September 17, 2003, at 11:55 PM, plantboyman wrote: > > I'm glad you mention that, Mr. Zappin. It's been my experience, as > someone who has been growing Chinese herbs since 1991, that the herbs > we receive from China of the medicines that are employing above- > ground portions of the plants are generally very poor in quality > compared to what they would be if they were only a few months old or > less. Reading some of Michael Moore's information about how one > should not be using some leafy local western herbs if they are older > than a year or two, it brings to mind what I have been seeing and > feeling with the material from China all too often. I have the sense > the material from China may have been sitting in warehouses for too > long and/or is over-dried from the beginning, damaging/losing some > (and in some cases probably most) of the " Qi " of the herbs. > Robert Newman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 You're definitely correct about it depending on the supplier, but Spring Wind and the company Emmanuel works at (Asia Natural Products?) are the exceptions, not the rule. And I've seen that even some of the remedies that Spring Wind gets are sometimes not any fresher or more primary than what I see commonly in the marketplace. Andy Ellis (and Dr. Liang) have made great efforts to try to obtain the best material they can--and they should be commended for it and practitioners should be buying their herbs to support their efforts-- but I know Andy very well and I know of his efforts and he is still limited and regularly frustated by the connections/sources he has in China. I can give a couple of examples of this involving primary species used for two medicines, Bai Jiang Cao and Zi Hua Di Ding. Andy had the correct Bai Jiang Cao (Patrinia spp.) for awhile some time back, but he has not had it available now for some time and has been forced to continue obtaining Xi Ming (Thlaspi arvense). And I have yet to see even one pharmacy/supplier in this country who has actually provided the true Zi Hua Di Ding (Viola yedoensis....or any Viola spp., for that matter) since I began as a student in 1989.....it has always been a substitute: probably Corydalis bungeana, Gueldenstadtia multiflora or Gentiana loureirii. When I was living and working in China, I was introduced to an herb company in Xuyi (northern Jiangsu. I asked to see their Zi Hua Di Ding and saw that they actually had Viola yedoensis for the Zi Hua Di Ding they carried. When I asked them about exporting herbs, the owners expressed interest in selling their herbs to the west/U.S., so I gave them Andy's fax info. Unfortunately they never contacted him. I learned that it is not easy for herb companies in China to get permission and the means to export their herbs overseas, so the process is somewhat limited and restricted. Someone has to make huge efforts over in China (as Dr. Liang has done) to get any material back here that is not typically what we have received and continue to receive through most distributors. The awareness about this situation is changing, but very slowly. Too few practitioners still know about these issues equal to the degree that they are a problem. Someone posted a message on this site recently where they expressed concern over herbs from China being laden with pesticides. Speaking of Andy Ellis, he's made great efforts to test the batches of herbs he gets in and has discovered that such a problem is relatively rare and infrequent.....most of the raw material we receive is not covered or filled with toxic residues--there are usually only a couple or so that are a problem.....in fact, much of what we receive is collected from the wild and therefore no spraying is done on most of our herbs. But the issues around primary and substitute/false species is indeed a common problem.....and I believe the freshness issue is also a big and common problem. I remember when Asia Natural Products first started importing their material years ago--Dr. Kang was one of my teachers at ACTCM and he showed me the material they had went to a lot of trouble to obtain. The freshness was amazing--the color and smell--you could actually breathe in the Qi of these herbs. But they were only able to get a small number of species at that time that had such quality. I haven't visited their company since then, so I don't know how many species/remedies they are able to obtain these days that has such freshness equal to what I saw years ago.....but I am fairly confident that you cannot get all your material from one source in China if you want to have most of your herbs be that fresh and of primary species.....that takes much more work and effort......and I know the price will usually not be as cheap, therefore, as some of the common companies' prices. This becomes an additional issue of resistance for many pharmacies and practitioners-- especially when they may not be aware of the differences (or may choose to pretend they aren't issues). I also remember when Andy first started shipping some of the true, primary species that he was able to locate to pharmacies, schools and herb companies that had never received them before......they complained and/or sent them back to Andy, because they didn't know that what they had been receiving all along before that time was not, in fact, the primary material for those remedies. I have a list of around 40 remedies that have the possibility (from what I and/or Andy have observed we have previously received here from most distributors) of being substitute or false material......something which is consistently an issue with some of these remedies and more variable with others. And one only needs to remember about the problems we have had regarding Fang Ji and Mu Tong to recognize there is a major problem here that still needs to be addressed much more extensively (and the Fang Ji/Mu Tong issue is about identification....that does not get into the issue of freshness/quality). Robert Newman , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > The quality of 'above-ground' material will depend on the > supplier/importer. I've seen some very high quality 'above-ground' > stuff through such suppliers as Spring Wind, and especially the > warehouse where Emmanuel Segmen works. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Z'ev and All, Historically over the past century, pretty much all herbs left China through Hong Kong and were preserved with some manner of sulfur preservatives (washing, smoking, etc.). It made sense if these herbs were to then be transported to Chinatowns around the world and sold over the course of a year. These days the market price plays a role wherein some herbs are warehoused until the price is right to sell them. Over the last decade, I have viewed the work of Dr. Liang at Asia Natural as somewhat of a treasure in that she is willing to travel in China and meet with agronomists and farmers to ship herbs more directly. I've worked personally with her since 1995. The American market is still rather small for shipping very many 40-foot containers worth of herbs, so the work really has to focus on corporate buying. That doesn't stop her from putting a large range of herbs on the container each in smaller quantities for sale to practitioners and so on. A lot of credit goes to Andy Ellis in the early 1990s for getting Dr. Liang to do this work and for being one of the original outlets for her efforts. Emmanuel Segmen - Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:03 AM Re: Re: comments on using Western herbs The quality of 'above-ground' material will depend on the supplier/importer. I've seen some very high quality 'above-ground' stuff through such suppliers as Spring Wind, and especially the warehouse where Emmanuel Segmen works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Thanks, Robert, For one of the most informative posts I've read in awhile. This info is very much appreciated. On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 12:46 PM, plantboyman wrote: > You're definitely correct about it depending on the supplier, > but Spring Wind and the company Emmanuel works at (Asia Natural > Products?) are the exceptions, not the rule. And I've seen that even > some of the remedies that Spring Wind gets are sometimes not any > fresher or more primary than what I see commonly in the marketplace. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.