Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Jason, >How does one test their purely theoretical ideas of how western herbs >work in a Chinese medical setting without using it on their patients? When one is first trained in Western herbology and has clinical experience using Western herbs and is then trained in Chinese medicine, one can make careful observations regarding patterns of dx and how the rx (Western) affected the patient. This is not experimentation in that the protocol is Western but the observation is Chinese. Over time, careful note taking and study one can begin to see how these herbs are working from the Chinese perspective. It is not simple but it can be done, it just takes time. >Furthermore, I think this discussion exemplifies the difference >between the western and eastern mind. In the west we think that if >we understand what Echinacea does, then it is simply, we put it into >the clinic/ formulas and that is that. In the east the concept of >what an herb does in found in relation to the other herbs, and this >is how its functions are defined. This thought process is key, and >illustrates major difference between eastern and western herbalism. This is a good point! There are definite differences in the way people from the East and West think. Easterners think in context and Westerners think linearly. However, when you look at the tradition of Western herbology there is a strong tradition of combining herbs in a very similar manner to Chinese herbology. " In the west we think that if we understand what Echinacea does, then it is simply, we put it into the clinic/ formulas and that is that. " This is an over simplification and is not the way most professional Western herbalists think or practice. There are simplers (herbalists who use only one herb at a time)but most Western herbalists use formulas not that dissimilar from the ones used in Chinese medicine, although generally smaller. > AS far a lishizhen, let us not forget the long tradition of not >only theory, but herbalogy that preceded him, verbal and written. We >just do not have that in the west. Sorry but this is simply not true! There is a long tradition in the West. You are right if you say that that tradition has been somewhat broken in a way that Chinese medical tradition wasn't. However, there are many texts from the past concerning Western herbal medicine. I used Li Shi-shen as an example, someone had to speculate at some point, didn't they? And if it was based on theory then weren't they trying out on patients something that was unproven? >There is such thing as rooted >speculation, and un-educated speculation. I question any westerner >who is classifying western medicinals for Chinese clinical use that >a) does not have 30+ years of experience, b) reads Chinese, c) has an >incredibly solid foundation in CM, not some training from some friend >in the 70's. This is outrageous. Outrageous! Michael has been practicing Chinese medicine since the early seventies, went to China in the mid-seventies, anyway I don't think I really need to defend him any more. Your above statement lack tact and respect. >Also how do we know a western herb is better than its eastern >counterpart? What does that mean? It does the same functions but >better?. Usually western herb counterparts, have different >properties - maybe slight, but different. If this is so, how does >one know how this will act in combination with other Chinese herbs. >This is key. These combinations have taken 1000's of years to >understand, not 20 years of 1 or 2 people's personal experience. I >am quite skeptical. Please remain skeptical, that is healthy. However, skeptism is only healthy when it comes from a place of understanding, one actually knows the subject matter. Without that understanding then it is only contemptuous. If you have specific questions you would like answered, Jason (or anyone else), I will be happy to answer them. I don't mind lively debate, in fact I love it, but please tone it down to a mild manner without the current tone. Respectfully, thomas Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture acupuncture and herbal information " Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. " Lao Tzu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Thomas : I have to agree with Jason when he wrote: > " This is key. These combinations have taken 1000's of years to >understand, not 20 years of 1 or 2 people's personal experience. I >am quite skeptical. " A review of Peter Holmes' " Energetics of Western Herbs " written in HerbalGram 1997;41:60 states; " Other problems, such as disagreements as to the energetic classification of Western herbs, are more in the nature of a scholarly dispute. It has taken the Chinese thousands of years to fully classify their materia medica and occasional arguments as to energetics of certain herbs still arise. I believe this to be the crux of the problem with this book; the creation of such a hybrid system of Herbal Medicine and the energetic classification of the Western materia medica are massive projects and are projects better suited to dozens, if not hundreds, of practitioners and researchers coordinating their efforts. " Apparently our skepticism is in good company. Warren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 , " " @e...> wrote: > Jason, > > >How does one test their purely theoretical ideas of how western herbs > >work in a Chinese medical setting without using it on their patients? > > When one is first trained in Western herbology and has clinical experience > using Western herbs and is then trained in Chinese medicine, one can make > careful observations regarding patterns of dx and how the rx (Western) > affected the patient. This is not experimentation in that the protocol is > Western but the observation is Chinese. Over time, careful note taking and > study one can begin to see how these herbs are working from the Chinese > perspective. It is not simple but it can be done, it just takes time. Dear Thomas, Ok.. I am confused... Lets say one has Herb W (western) - It is not documented from a eastern perspective (meaning how it relates with eastern herbs to address eastern patterns). How then can you without giving it to a patient, understand its relationship with Chinese herbs. Maybe I am missing something obvious here? My original point is this: a) TO understand the functions one must understand combinations (eastern), b) to do this one must apply western herbs to eastern formulas. c) hence one must experiment on their patients. and as paraphrased from 'Why should one experiment, when we have a 2000 year roadmap that works, vs. 10-20 years of speculation' is that right Todd? I say if you are going to push the envelope, then you must experiment on one's patients, just by the nature of the subject and medicine. And this is precisely why I feel that my previously mentioned `extreme' criteria for this pursuit is necessary. Reading Chinese, major experience, etc. Trust me I am interested in this integration, for I studies western herbs and (Tierra, moore etc) for 6 years before TCM school, and am missing this concept of how one classifies western herbs as eastern energetics, that you describe above… Maybe you could elaborate with some examples. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 > This is a good point! There are definite differences in the way people from > the East and West think. Easterners think in context and Westerners think > linearly. However, when you look at the tradition of Western herbology there > is a strong tradition of combining herbs in a very similar manner to Chinese > herbology. > I understand that western herbology does use formulas. This is clear. But I have yet to be convinced that westerners use them in anything close to the same way that Easterners do. Everything from their Diagnosis (usually based on mainstream western medicine - very very few patterns) to their understanding of the herbs properties (i.e. they are not understood in context of other herbs, but individual functions that are put together to form a Rx) are different. IMO, the thought processes are completely different. This is fine, but to understand integration, we must first understand the sometimes not so obvious differences in thought processes. I contend that combining is done is two totally different ways that is not as easy as one seems when combining the two systems. I am glad others find this easy, but I see extreme complexity. I am awaiting something that explains a) the properties and rules for combining from a western perspective, b) how this is similar to easterners. This would be a nice article… -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 > > Sorry but this is simply not true! There is a long tradition in the West. > You are right if you say that that tradition has been somewhat broken in a > way that Chinese medical tradition wasn't. However, there are many texts > from the past concerning Western herbal medicine. What is truth...? all a matter of perception? What is this long tradition, and how does it apply to modern day… AS Z'ev pointed out Greco-Arabic used combos. This is fine, and many other past western systems have interesting ideas, but lets break this down. A) How much of this is used today? I.e. the humoral system. We can see concepts of eastern herbalism going back 1000+ years (still used, is this true for western H.? – Not really (IMO) B) Since W. Herbalism is mostly based on western medicine, a constantly changing system, the ideas for herbalism from even 100 years ago are many times quite questionable today. This is precisely because the understanding of `the disease' has drastically changed. Therefore, I see a long western tradition, but as you say it is broken, and almost of little use in the real clinical setting. Show me one major herb text that is over 200 years old (western) that people study for clinical use and modern day relevance? These kind of questions show real depth of thought, in western herbalism. Furthermore, the reason I actually got into CM, was precisely b/c of this. The theory and depth for combining herbs is quite simplistic and their diagnosis is limited - IMO. > > Outrageous! Michael has been practicing Chinese medicine since the early > seventies, went to China in the mid-seventies, anyway I don't think I really > need to defend him any more. Your above statement lack tact and respect. I am not attacking M.T. – but the criteria one needs to really push the envelope in eastern or integrative medicine. AS stated before I think reading Chinese is a must, a deep understanding, among other things. I do not know M.T. personally so let us put him aside. But just looking at someone's time practicing and that `they went to China' means very little to me. Let's look at a few things. In the 70's how many books were written in English? In the 80's how many books were written in English. What does going to China mean? Did someone spend 5-10 years living and studying in hospitals/clinics? The reality IMO is that time/ experience is an essential prereq. for developing new ideas, but not a licenses to do what they want. I am sure we have all met practitioners that have been in practice 20 years that really know very little about CM, and others, especially ones that read Chinese, that really get it. I judge one's experience with integrated knowledge. > > Please remain skeptical, that is healthy. However, skeptism is only healthy > when it comes from a place of understanding, one actually knows the subject > matter. Without that understanding then it is only contemptuous. Well I am no expert in western herbalism, but have studied a fair amount of it, and was not that impressed. But I am open to further elaborations that you or others can give, to enlighten me. > > If you have specific questions you would like answered, Jason (or anyone > else), I will be happy to answer them. I don't mind lively debate, in fact I > love it, but please tone it down to a mild manner without the current tone. I am sure there are a few questions that you could answer in the last 3 posts, and that would be great. AS far as the tone, I apologize I meant no disrespect… My tone never comes through the internet as I would like. Take care, -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Jason, you are mistaken. Up until the witchburnings of the 1800's, the " western " healers were herbal healers. It was an oral tradition, not written down. It is not true that western herbalism has followed in the steps of western medicine. What is true, is that western medicine has always tried, and continues to try, to obliterate and eliminate herbalism in all its forms, in most cases... before the " western herbalists " , all traditions of peoples employed plant medicine in their healing arts. Much of this was passed along family lines and in shamanic context. The history and evidence you seek exists, but it has not been written down, and therefore western " medicine " will never consider it " scientific " . < wrote: > > Sorry but this is simply not true! There is a long tradition in the West. > You are right if you say that that tradition has been somewhat broken in a > way that Chinese medical tradition wasn't. However, there are many texts > from the past concerning Western herbal medicine. What is truth...? all a matter of perception? What is this long tradition, and how does it apply to modern day… AS Z'ev pointed out Greco-Arabic used combos. This is fine, and many other past western systems have interesting ideas, but lets break this down. A) How much of this is used today? I.e. the humoral system. We can see concepts of eastern herbalism going back 1000+ years (still used, is this true for western H.? – Not really (IMO) B) Since W. Herbalism is mostly based on western medicine, a constantly changing system, the ideas for herbalism from even 100 years ago are many times quite questionable today. This is precisely because the understanding of `the disease' has drastically changed. Therefore, I see a long western tradition, but as you say it is broken, and almost of little use in the real clinical setting. Show me one major herb text that is over 200 years old (western) that people study for clinical use and modern day relevance? These kind of questions show real depth of thought, in western herbalism. Furthermore, the reason I actually got into CM, was precisely b/c of this. The theory and depth for combining herbs is quite simplistic and their diagnosis is limited - IMO. > > Outrageous! Michael has been practicing Chinese medicine since the early > seventies, went to China in the mid-seventies, anyway I don't think I really > need to defend him any more. Your above statement lack tact and respect. I am not attacking M.T. – but the criteria one needs to really push the envelope in eastern or integrative medicine. AS stated before I think reading Chinese is a must, a deep understanding, among other things. I do not know M.T. personally so let us put him aside. But just looking at someone's time practicing and that `they went to China' means very little to me. Let's look at a few things. In the 70's how many books were written in English? In the 80's how many books were written in English. What does going to China mean? Did someone spend 5-10 years living and studying in hospitals/clinics? The reality IMO is that time/ experience is an essential prereq. for developing new ideas, but not a licenses to do what they want. I am sure we have all met practitioners that have been in practice 20 years that really know very little about CM, and others, especially ones that read Chinese, that really get it. I judge one's experience with integrated knowledge. > > Please remain skeptical, that is healthy. However, skeptism is only healthy > when it comes from a place of understanding, one actually knows the subject > matter. Without that understanding then it is only contemptuous. Well I am no expert in western herbalism, but have studied a fair amount of it, and was not that impressed. But I am open to further elaborations that you or others can give, to enlighten me. > > If you have specific questions you would like answered, Jason (or anyone > else), I will be happy to answer them. I don't mind lively debate, in fact I > love it, but please tone it down to a mild manner without the current tone. I am sure there are a few questions that you could answer in the last 3 posts, and that would be great. AS far as the tone, I apologize I meant no disrespect… My tone never comes through the internet as I would like. Take care, -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 By the way, herbal knowledge has always arrived from experimentation - mostly by practitioners experimenting on themselves and then on the families and communities who entrusted them with their care. Whether or not we choose to follow that tradition today is a matter of accountability and responsibility. Yes, I will experiment on myself, but so far, not on anyone else. I imagine most of us will experiment on ourselves. Perhaps this is something we can use as a beginning point for gathering some of the data you seek - a dialog on what herbal combinations we are experimenting with, and what results we get. < wrote: > > Sorry but this is simply not true! There is a long tradition in the West. > You are right if you say that that tradition has been somewhat broken in a > way that Chinese medical tradition wasn't. However, there are many texts > from the past concerning Western herbal medicine. What is truth...? all a matter of perception? What is this long tradition, and how does it apply to modern day… AS Z'ev pointed out Greco-Arabic used combos. This is fine, and many other past western systems have interesting ideas, but lets break this down. A) How much of this is used today? I.e. the humoral system. We can see concepts of eastern herbalism going back 1000+ years (still used, is this true for western H.? – Not really (IMO) B) Since W. Herbalism is mostly based on western medicine, a constantly changing system, the ideas for herbalism from even 100 years ago are many times quite questionable today. This is precisely because the understanding of `the disease' has drastically changed. Therefore, I see a long western tradition, but as you say it is broken, and almost of little use in the real clinical setting. Show me one major herb text that is over 200 years old (western) that people study for clinical use and modern day relevance? These kind of questions show real depth of thought, in western herbalism. Furthermore, the reason I actually got into CM, was precisely b/c of this. The theory and depth for combining herbs is quite simplistic and their diagnosis is limited - IMO. > > Outrageous! Michael has been practicing Chinese medicine since the early > seventies, went to China in the mid-seventies, anyway I don't think I really > need to defend him any more. Your above statement lack tact and respect. I am not attacking M.T. – but the criteria one needs to really push the envelope in eastern or integrative medicine. AS stated before I think reading Chinese is a must, a deep understanding, among other things. I do not know M.T. personally so let us put him aside. But just looking at someone's time practicing and that `they went to China' means very little to me. Let's look at a few things. In the 70's how many books were written in English? In the 80's how many books were written in English. What does going to China mean? Did someone spend 5-10 years living and studying in hospitals/clinics? The reality IMO is that time/ experience is an essential prereq. for developing new ideas, but not a licenses to do what they want. I am sure we have all met practitioners that have been in practice 20 years that really know very little about CM, and others, especially ones that read Chinese, that really get it. I judge one's experience with integrated knowledge. > > Please remain skeptical, that is healthy. However, skeptism is only healthy > when it comes from a place of understanding, one actually knows the subject > matter. Without that understanding then it is only contemptuous. Well I am no expert in western herbalism, but have studied a fair amount of it, and was not that impressed. But I am open to further elaborations that you or others can give, to enlighten me. > > If you have specific questions you would like answered, Jason (or anyone > else), I will be happy to answer them. I don't mind lively debate, in fact I > love it, but please tone it down to a mild manner without the current tone. I am sure there are a few questions that you could answer in the last 3 posts, and that would be great. AS far as the tone, I apologize I meant no disrespect… My tone never comes through the internet as I would like. Take care, -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience growing Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild or in cultivation. Bob Flaws started to touch on this in his posts a few weeks ago with his translations from the zhong yao da ci dian. On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 10:35 AM, wrote: > By the way, herbal knowledge has always arrived from experimentation - > mostly by practitioners experimenting on themselves and then on the > families and communities who entrusted them with their care. Whether > or not we choose to follow that tradition today is a matter of > accountability and responsibility. Yes, I will experiment on myself, > but so far, not on anyone else. I imagine most of us will experiment > on ourselves. Perhaps this is something we can use as a beginning > point for gathering some of the data you seek - a dialog on what > herbal combinations we are experimenting with, and what results we > get. > > > > < wrote: > >> >> Sorry but this is simply not true! There is a long tradition in the > West. >> You are right if you say that that tradition has been somewhat > broken in a >> way that Chinese medical tradition wasn't. However, there are many > texts >> from the past concerning Western herbal medicine. > > What is truth...? all a matter of perception? What is this long > tradition, and how does it apply to modern day… AS Z'ev pointed out > Greco-Arabic used combos. This is fine, and many other past western > systems have interesting ideas, but lets break this down. A) How > much of this is used today? I.e. the humoral system. We can see > concepts of eastern herbalism going back 1000+ years (still used, is > this true for western H.? – Not really (IMO) B) Since W. Herbalism is > mostly based on western medicine, a constantly changing system, the > ideas for herbalism from even 100 years ago are many times quite > questionable today. This is precisely because the understanding > of `the disease' has drastically changed. Therefore, I see a long > western tradition, but as you say it is broken, and almost of little > use in the real clinical setting. Show me one major herb text that is > over 200 years old (western) that people study for clinical use and > modern day relevance? These kind of questions show real depth of > thought, in western herbalism. Furthermore, the reason I actually > got into CM, was precisely b/c of this. The theory and depth for > combining herbs is quite simplistic and their diagnosis is limited - > IMO. > >> >> Outrageous! Michael has been practicing Chinese medicine since the > early >> seventies, went to China in the mid-seventies, anyway I don't think > I really >> need to defend him any more. Your above statement lack tact and > respect. > > I am not attacking M.T. – but the criteria one needs to really push > the envelope in eastern or integrative medicine. AS stated before I > think reading Chinese is a must, a deep understanding, among other > things. I do not know M.T. personally so let us put him aside. But > just looking at someone's time practicing and that `they went to > China' means very little to me. Let's look at a few things. In the > 70's how many books were written in English? In the 80's how many > books were written in English. What does going to China mean? Did > someone spend 5-10 years living and studying in hospitals/clinics? > The reality IMO is that time/ experience is an essential prereq. for > developing new ideas, but not a licenses to do what they want. I am > sure we have all met practitioners that have been in practice 20 > years that really know very little about CM, and others, especially > ones that read Chinese, that really get it. I judge one's experience > with integrated knowledge. > > >> >> Please remain skeptical, that is healthy. However, skeptism is only > healthy >> when it comes from a place of understanding, one actually knows the > subject >> matter. Without that understanding then it is only contemptuous. > > Well I am no expert in western herbalism, but have studied a fair > amount of it, and was not that impressed. But I am open to further > elaborations that you or others can give, to enlighten me. > >> >> If you have specific questions you would like answered, Jason (or > anyone >> else), I will be happy to answer them. I don't mind lively debate, > in fact I >> love it, but please tone it down to a mild manner without the > current tone. > > I am sure there are a few questions that you could answer in the last > 3 posts, and that would be great. AS far as the tone, I apologize I > meant no disrespect… My tone never comes through the internet as I > would like. Take care, > > -Jason > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Z'ev, I'm glad you said this. I am intensely interested in hearing from anyone with experience in cultivating medicinals in the West, particularly in northern California. I may have an opportunity to get involved in growing some herbs on a few acres of incredible organic farmland in Sonoma county. I'd really like to get some input from people as to what should be grown and resources that are available. Ken , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience growing > Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild or in > cultivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hi Ken, A few years ago, I was researching resources for medicinal plants for an herb garden at PCOM - San Diego. I forget the exact name of the place, but I discovered that the Botanical Garden in Berkeley in the hills above UC Berkeley has an extensive Chinese herb garden. The woman in charge of the garden at the time had offered to provide us with all the starter plants (cuttings or divisions) that we might want. It was her opinion that most of their plants would fare better in San Diego that they were in Berkeley, because of the warmer climate here - she told me that their plants grew very slowly there, and most of them would not flower because it was too cool. I can dig around and see if I still have her contact info, if you are interested. We never started the garden at PCOM due to lack of growing space, but if this woman is still there, I imagine she'd be receptive, particularly if you can tie your project into some kind of educational program - her receptivity towards me was due to the fact that I was connected to PCOM, and the Botanical Garden's purpose and funding is education-related. I also discovered that ACTCM in San Francisco had an herb garden, but smaller and less diverse than Berkeley's. I never did find a contact there for plant stock, but this might be another avenue to pursue. There are also seed providers, but I do not know who they are. Given the input from the woman at the Botanical Garden, a general thought might be that plants from the north might grow better in your climate than plants native to southern regions. If plants are not flowering and fruiting, then they are not flourishing, and I would question their medicinal value/potency. kenrose2008 <kenrose2008 wrote: Z'ev, I'm glad you said this. I am intensely interested in hearing from anyone with experience in cultivating medicinals in the West, particularly in northern California. I may have an opportunity to get involved in growing some herbs on a few acres of incredible organic farmland in Sonoma county. I'd really like to get some input from people as to what should be grown and resources that are available. Ken , " Z'ev Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience growing > Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild or in > cultivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Ken, We have some access to seed stock and plants from plantitherbs.com. I certainly would love to contribute in some way to such a project. I am growing some chinese herbs on a small scale in my home garden, but don't have the time or energy to really do it justice. On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 11:51 AM, kenrose2008 wrote: > Z'ev, > > I'm glad you said this. > > I am intensely interested in hearing from > anyone with experience in cultivating medicinals > in the West, particularly in northern California. > > I may have an opportunity to get involved in > growing some herbs on a few acres of incredible > organic farmland in Sonoma county. > > I'd really like to get some input from people as > to what should be grown and resources that > are available. > > Ken > > , " Z'ev > Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: >> I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience > growing >> Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild > or in >> cultivation. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 The man who started ACTCM's herb garden in Robert Newman. He is still in CA some where - ACTCM can probably put you in touch with him. He has some great sources for getting plants and a huge amount of knowledge. Marnae At 12:06 PM 9/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Ken, > >A few years ago, I was researching resources for medicinal plants for an >herb garden at PCOM - San Diego. I forget the exact name of the place, >but I discovered that the Botanical Garden in Berkeley in the hills above >UC Berkeley has an extensive Chinese herb garden. The woman in charge of >the garden at the time had offered to provide us with all the starter >plants (cuttings or divisions) that we might want. It was her opinion >that most of their plants would fare better in San Diego that they were in >Berkeley, because of the warmer climate here - she told me that their >plants grew very slowly there, and most of them would not flower because >it was too cool. > >I can dig around and see if I still have her contact info, if you are >interested. We never started the garden at PCOM due to lack of growing >space, but if this woman is still there, I imagine she'd be receptive, >particularly if you can tie your project into some kind of educational >program - her receptivity towards me was due to the fact that I was >connected to PCOM, and the Botanical Garden's purpose and funding is >education-related. I also discovered that ACTCM in San Francisco had an >herb garden, but smaller and less diverse than Berkeley's. I never did >find a contact there for plant stock, but this might be another avenue to >pursue. There are also seed providers, but I do not know who they are. > >Given the input from the woman at the Botanical Garden, a general thought >might be that plants from the north might grow better in your climate than >plants native to southern regions. If plants are not flowering and >fruiting, then they are not flourishing, and I would question their >medicinal value/potency. > > > >kenrose2008 <kenrose2008 wrote: >Z'ev, > >I'm glad you said this. > >I am intensely interested in hearing from >anyone with experience in cultivating medicinals >in the West, particularly in northern California. > >I may have an opportunity to get involved in >growing some herbs on a few acres of incredible >organic farmland in Sonoma county. > >I'd really like to get some input from people as >to what should be grown and resources that >are available. > >Ken > > , " Z'ev >Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience >growing > > Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild >or in > > cultivation. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Robert Newman is at ECTOM right now. If anybody needs his email address I can give it to them. On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 12:19 PM, Marnae Ergil wrote: > The man who started ACTCM's herb garden in Robert Newman. He is still > in > CA some where - ACTCM can probably put you in touch with him. He has > some > great sources for getting plants and a huge amount of knowledge. > > Marnae > > At 12:06 PM 9/16/2003 -0700, you wrote: >> Hi Ken, >> >> A few years ago, I was researching resources for medicinal plants for >> an >> herb garden at PCOM - San Diego. I forget the exact name of the >> place, >> but I discovered that the Botanical Garden in Berkeley in the hills >> above >> UC Berkeley has an extensive Chinese herb garden. The woman in >> charge of >> the garden at the time had offered to provide us with all the starter >> plants (cuttings or divisions) that we might want. It was her opinion >> that most of their plants would fare better in San Diego that they >> were in >> Berkeley, because of the warmer climate here - she told me that their >> plants grew very slowly there, and most of them would not flower >> because >> it was too cool. >> >> I can dig around and see if I still have her contact info, if you are >> interested. We never started the garden at PCOM due to lack of >> growing >> space, but if this woman is still there, I imagine she'd be receptive, >> particularly if you can tie your project into some kind of educational >> program - her receptivity towards me was due to the fact that I was >> connected to PCOM, and the Botanical Garden's purpose and funding is >> education-related. I also discovered that ACTCM in San Francisco had >> an >> herb garden, but smaller and less diverse than Berkeley's. I never >> did >> find a contact there for plant stock, but this might be another >> avenue to >> pursue. There are also seed providers, but I do not know who they >> are. >> >> Given the input from the woman at the Botanical Garden, a general >> thought >> might be that plants from the north might grow better in your climate >> than >> plants native to southern regions. If plants are not flowering and >> fruiting, then they are not flourishing, and I would question their >> medicinal value/potency. >> >> >> >> kenrose2008 <kenrose2008 wrote: >> Z'ev, >> >> I'm glad you said this. >> >> I am intensely interested in hearing from >> anyone with experience in cultivating medicinals >> in the West, particularly in northern California. >> >> I may have an opportunity to get involved in >> growing some herbs on a few acres of incredible >> organic farmland in Sonoma county. >> >> I'd really like to get some input from people as >> to what should be grown and resources that >> are available. >> >> Ken >> >> , " Z'ev >> Rosenberg " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: >>> I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience >> growing >>> Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild >> or in >>> cultivation. >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Andrea, Thank you for your voice on this topic. Both of your posts seem quite accurate from my experience. My mother's grandmother in eastern Macedonia at the turn of the nineteenth century was a successful herbal practitioner for her community. Her tradition was an oral one and did not travel, could not travel, outside of the places where her herbs grew in forests and meadows. She was, as far as my family knows, a complete practitioner and took on all cases ... never turned anyone in need away despite the presence of allopathic practitioners in nearby cities. I took the time to read the practical histories of medicine in the U. S. before going to medical school. I found I had to read doctoral theses in order to find published work that was of any significant detail. Allopathic medicine (and surgery) as it became practiced in the 1900s and in recent times was back alley medicine in the 1800s. Here I am describing allopathic to mean presenting poisons to the host in order to preferentially kill infecting microorganisms while limiting the injury to the host. Herbal medicine can go there, too, but the overall theory was not presented as " us against them " where us is our species and them is any other species. The absolute sterility of American bathrooms stands as a shrine to this sensibility. I found in my study that homeopathy in the U.S. was a theory taught at reputable medical schools before the 1900s. Herbal medicine in the U.S. was mainly practiced by Indians or Curanderos and a limited number of European settlers. My main effort to study medicine in America was to see what had been taught at the major medical schools historically. So I did not pursue the various eclectic schools that attempted to write about herbal function in America. My observations regarding CM over the years has been that of the almost a filial piety of bringing oral traditions into written traditions and then a constant revision of written traditions. There is a kind of honoring the ancestors in this it seems ... even a bit of competition between whose ancestors get honored. I would also like to note that there are fundamental differences that accrue from oral and written traditions. Thus, I find CM practitioners who are trained in both lineage oral traditions along with college based training to be of the most intriguing group of practitioners. Perhaps I'm not alone in feeling this way. Thanks again Andrea for your presentation. I would enjoy hearing more of your views. I greatly miss this sensibility from my own family tradition and love to hear it expressed. Emmanuel Segmen - " " < Tuesday, September 16, 2003 10:35 AM Re: Re: Simple explanation By the way, herbal knowledge has always arrived from experimentation - mostly by practitioners experimenting on themselves and then on the families and communities who entrusted them with their care. Whether or not we choose to follow that tradition today is a matter of accountability and responsibility. Yes, I will experiment on myself, but so far, not on anyone else. I imagine most of us will experiment on ourselves. Perhaps this is something we can use as a beginning point for gathering some of the data you seek - a dialog on what herbal combinations we are experimenting with, and what results we get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Z'ev, Andrea and All, Dr. Liang where I work has indicated that anyone in America who chooses to grow Jin Yin Hua or to wildcraft it would do very well. I personally have sold tonnage of this herb this year and even had tonnage removed from my container in China because it was needed for the SARS epidemic. Dr. Liang would discourage people regarding the growing of roots unless you really want to engage in the development of your own new medicine. Of course, the great artists of the past created their own colors from minerals and other raw materials to do their artwork. Great CM practitioners might try to do the same. But trying to grow Chinese ginseng away from the Chang Bei Shan mountains in Jilin or growing dang gui away from Gansu would be something even the Chinese agronomists haven't been able to do. Huang lian on the other hand grows in quite a variety of mountainous locales as does huang qi. The Chinese agronomists with whom we work throughout the year indicate that Americans could and should produce their own flowers and leafy herbs from the vast numbers of such in the Chinese pharmacopoeia. By the way, U.S. growers have offered to sell us quite a bit of Schisandra chinensis fruit, but none of it has ever been wu wei zi. Rather it has been one or two flavored fruit. Wu wei zi in China is a purely wildcrafted herb, and the people who do the work jealously guard their sources ... like Pacific fishermen who know where and when to look for their fish stocks. It's a bit heartbreaking to have to tell someone that their beautiful, organically grown Schisandra fruit is not useful to us. Whereas anyone who can get their hands on jin yin hua right now will do very well indeed. Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural - Tuesday, September 16, 2003 10:47 AM Re: Re: Simple explanation I agree. In addition, I am interested in people's experience growing Chinese herbs in the West, and finding equivalents in the wild or in cultivation. Bob Flaws started to touch on this in his posts a few weeks ago with his translations from the zhong yao da ci dian. On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 10:35 AM, wrote: > By the way, herbal knowledge has always arrived from experimentation - > mostly by practitioners experimenting on themselves and then on the > families and communities who entrusted them with their care. Whether > or not we choose to follow that tradition today is a matter of > accountability and responsibility. Yes, I will experiment on myself, > but so far, not on anyone else. I imagine most of us will experiment > on ourselves. Perhaps this is something we can use as a beginning > point for gathering some of the data you seek - a dialog on what > herbal combinations we are experimenting with, and what results we > get. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Ken, I have a very interesting book called Herbal Emissaries by Steven Foster and Yue ChongXi, Pub Healing Arts Press ISBN 0-89281-349-0 . Foster is a hebalist and botanist and Yue is a pharmacognist atthe Academy of TCM in Beijing. The book includes details on cultivation, harvesting and preparation. Simon , " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008> wrote: > > I am intensely interested in hearing from > anyone with experience in cultivating medicinals > in the West, particularly in northern California. > > I may have an opportunity to get involved in > growing some herbs on a few acres of incredible > organic farmland in Sonoma county. > > I'd really like to get some input from people as > to what should be grown and resources that > are available. > > Ken > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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