Western herbs in TCM

[Guest guest]

Jason, Warren, et al,

 

I just wanted to say that I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation/debate

we are having. It has been very refreshing if not demanding of time. I hope

there can be more discussion of the actual plants rather than the basic

premise, which I believe to be solid based on the very nature of Chinese

medicine and the fact that the Chinese have been doing what I am doing for a

long time. Whether I'm the most qualified person to do it could be debated

but I would like to think the work will show I am at least competent and at

best be a significant contribution to the ever transforming field of Chinese

medicine.

 

>Dear Thomas,

>Ok.. I am confused... Lets say one has Herb W (western) - It is not

>documented from a eastern perspective (meaning how it relates with

>eastern herbs to address eastern patterns). How then can you without

>giving it to a patient, understand its relationship with Chinese

>herbs. Maybe I am missing something obvious here? My original point

>is this: a) TO understand the functions one must understand

>combinations (eastern),

 

Jason, I believe the above explanation is comprehensive. If your giving

patients herbs from a Western dx and treatment strategy and observing with

your TCM hat on, you can, over time, seen patterns and understand how that

herb or herb combination works from the TCM perspective. You are right that

at some point you need to make a leap of faith and say, " I feel confident I

understand this herb or combination from the TCM perspective. " , abandon the

Western dx/tx strategy and just practice TCM. Further, if you know the

plants and know the materia medica " professionally " then you should

understand when to use one herb or combination over another based on

specific dx. Read Scudder or Cook or Ellingwood or Priest and Priest, they

all give very specific " patterns " for using specific herbs or combinations.

The main difference is language, not specificity.

 

>b) to do this one must apply western herbs to eastern formulas.

 

Why do we have to " apply western herbs to eastern formulas " to understand

Western herbs' engergetic properties?

 

>as paraphrased from 'Why should one experiment, when we have a

>2000 year roadmap that works, vs. 10-20 years of speculation' is that

>right Todd?

 

I think I have answered that question already. There are many reasons and

you might ask the Chinese why they intergrated American Ginseng, Myrrh, Corn

Silk, or many others that have been brought into regular practice in China.

 

>I understand that western herbology does use formulas. This is

>clear. But I have yet to be convinced that westerners use them in

>anything close to the same way that Easterners do.

 

In fact, most Western formulas are something more like dui yao instead of

large formulations as found in TCM. This is very common and exactly like

TCM, except they use different language to describe what they are talking

about.

 

>their Diagnosis (usually based on mainstream western medicine - very

>very few patterns) to their understanding of the herbs properties

>(i.e. they are not understood in context of other herbs, but

>individual functions that are put together to form a Rx) are

>different.

 

Just as you studied single herbs in school so do Westerners. However, if one

advances beyond folk herbalism (which I believe is quite valid in its own

right) one studies combinations. I'll admit not quite to the extent that TCM

does, however we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

>I contend that combining is done is two totally different ways that is

>not as easy as one seems when combining the two systems.

 

I contend that I am NOT trying to combine two systems, I am introducing

herbs to the TCM materia medica, which I believe are important for the

practice of TCM in the West for the various reasons already stated.

 

>I am awaiting something that explains a) the properties and rules for

combining

>from a western perspective, b) how this is similar to easterners.

>This would be a nice article.

 

An interesting idea for an article, I doubt many journals would be all that

interested in it though.

 

Both Western and Chinese medicine have undergone many changes over the

years. Don't forget that the concept of blood stasis is only a little more

than a century old. Think about how much that concept and the treatment

strategies that come out of it have changed the field!

 

>A) How much of this is used today? I.e. the humoral system. We can see

concepts of eastern herbalism going back 1000+ years (still used, is

this true for western H.? - Not really (IMO)

 

Your right, the humoral system is not used today except in some places in

the Middle East, primarily Pakistan. Although Western herbalism may not have

theories that go back 1000 or more years still in use, why does that make it

less valid. Surely there are many ideas from time past, in Chinese medicine,

that have long since been abandoned.

 

>B) Since W. Herbalism is mostly based on western medicine, a constantly

changing system, >the ideas for herbalism from even 100 years ago are many

times quite

>questionable today. This is precisely because the understanding

>of `the disease' has drastically changed.

 

This is also true of Chinese medicine.............

 

>Therefore, I see a long western tradition, but as you say it is broken, and

almost of little

>use in the real clinical setting.

 

Well I guess all of my Western herbal colleagues should hang up their

tincture bottles and hand over their patients to TCM practitioners, since

what they do is, " of little use in the real clinical setting. " Sorry Jason,

you're way off the mark here.

 

Let it be known, I practice TCM because I see it as a better system for

treating chronic illness, in most cases. However, all SYSTEMS have their

place and as any experienced practitioner knows they can't heal all cases.

The funny thing is I've seen people get better using things/ideas/etc I

would generally laugh at as being off the wall, healing is a personal matter

and if we become snobby, reductionist, TCM practitioners we will alienate

patients and other practitioners.

 

>My tone never comes through the internet as I

>would like. Take care,

-Jason

 

I know the feeling............

 

 

Thoughtfully,

thomas

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

acupuncture and herbal information

 

 

 

" Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. "

Lao Tzu