Authenticity and freshnes of herbs from China

[Guest guest]

Thank you Robert.

 

It's not possible for Andy Ellis or Dr. Liang to present such detailed

information as you have just done without sounding self-serving. You've

presented actually a rather conservative view. The amount of traveling that Dr.

Liang has to do to at least six provinces per year is an arduous workout.

There are fortunately agronomists PhDs trained in Jilin Province from all over

China who fan out back to their provinces of origin. They work with each other

and help Dr. Liang meet with top traditional growers in different provinces.

 

Indeed, you, Robert, have seen the differences between what real Chinese herbs

from China can be like compared to what is in America or even compared to what

is in herb shops in most of China for that matter. Dr. Liang has to meet with

agronomists in the provinces of Jilin, Shandong, Shaanxi, Nei Mon, Gansu and

Sichuan just to get us 100 varieties of the herbs you've described in their

freshest format. We've moved on from the few that Dr. Kang showed in you 1989.

Some do not look anything like what people are trained with at ACTCM. That

alone is a huge hurdle to deal with. He shou wu that has been cooked for 16

hour cycles in Shandong is ebony black puffy thick slices, not reddish brown

thinly sliced stuff that causes diarrhea if used in any appreciable amounts for

tonification. Really fresh cross-cut huang qi (not the tongue depressor things)

is also rare in this country. Dr. Kang used to scold me regularly in 1988 at

ACTCM when I bought herbs from Kwok Shin. I pointed out that I had no other

alternatives. I helped him buy his first car back then and then we toured

Chinatown shops to discover that the herbs he expected to see did not exist

here. They still don't exist here. Those same Chinatown herb shops can not

possibly buy our herbs because they've never seen herbs as they might come from

the grower. An interesting conundrum.

 

Michael Tierra once commented to me on the phone a few years ago that he felt he

had to learn Chinese herbs all over again. Ken Morris in 1995 actually spent

several two hour sessions with Dr. Kang in his clinic going over about 100 herbs

to update his knowledge regarding growing regions, organoleptic features of

interest and so on. I taped his interviews at that time.

 

I'm grateful for your presentation and your presence on this list. Your vision

is a rare one here in America. I do look forward to your visit when you are in

San Francisco.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

-

plantboyman

Thursday, September 18, 2003 12:46 PM

Re: comments on using Western herbs

 

 

You're definitely correct about it depending on the supplier, but Spring

Wind and the company Emmanuel works at (Asia Natural Products?) are the

exceptions, not the rule. And I've seen that even some of the remedies that

Spring Wind gets are sometimes not any fresher or more primary than what I see

commonly in the marketplace. Andy Ellis (and Dr. Liang) have made great efforts

to try to obtain

the best material they can--and they should be commended for it and

practitioners should be buying their herbs to support their efforts-- but I know

Andy very well and I know of his efforts and he is still limited and regularly

frustated by the connections/sources he has in China. I can give a couple of

examples of this involving primary

species used for two medicines, Bai Jiang Cao and Zi Hua Di Ding. Andy had

the correct Bai Jiang Cao (Patrinia spp.) for awhile some time back, but he has

not had it available now for some time and has been forced to continue obtaining

Xi Ming (Thlaspi arvense). And I have yet to see even one pharmacy/supplier in

this country who has actually provided the true Zi Hua Di Ding (Viola

yedoensis....or any Viola spp., for that matter) since I began as a student in

1989.....it has always been a substitute: probably Corydalis bungeana,

Gueldenstadtia multiflora or Gentiana loureirii. When I was living and working

in China, I was introduced to an herb company in Xuyi (northern Jiangsu. I

asked to see their Zi Hua Di Ding and saw that they actually had Viola yedoensis

for the Zi Hua Di Ding

they carried. When I asked them about exporting herbs, the owners expressed

interest in selling their herbs to the west/U.S., so I gave them Andy's fax

info. Unfortunately they never contacted him. I learned that it is not easy

for herb companies in China to get permission and the means to export their

herbs overseas, so the process is somewhat limited and restricted. Someone has

to make huge efforts over in China (as Dr. Liang has done) to get any material

back here that is not typically what we have received and continue to receive

through most distributors. The awareness about this situation is changing, but

very slowly. Too few practitioners still know about these issues equal to the

degree that they are a problem.

Someone posted a message on this site recently where they expressed concern

over herbs from China being laden with pesticides. Speaking of Andy Ellis,

he's made great efforts to test the batches of herbs he gets in and has

discovered that such a problem is relatively rare and infrequent.....most of the

raw material we receive is not covered or filled with toxic residues--there are

usually only a couple or so that are a problem.....in fact, much of what we

receive is collected from the wild and therefore no spraying is done on most of

our herbs. But the issues around primary and substitute/false species is indeed

a common problem.....and I believe the freshness issue is also a big and common

problem. I remember when Asia Natural Products first started importing their

material years ago--Dr. Kang was one of my teachers at ACTCM and he showed me

the material they had went to a lot of trouble to obtain. The freshness was

amazing--the color and smell--you could actually breathe in the Qi of these

herbs. But they were only able to get a small number of species at that time

that had such quality. I haven't visited their company since then, so I don't

know how many species/remedies they are able to obtain these days that has such

freshness equal to what I saw years ago.....but I am fairly confident that you

cannot get all your material from one source in China if you want to have most

of your herbs be that fresh and of primary species.....that takes much more work

and effort......and I know the price will usually not be as cheap, therefore, as

some of the common companies' prices. This becomes an additional issue of

resistance for many pharmacies and practitioners--

especially when they may not be aware of the differences (or may choose to

pretend they aren't issues). I also remember when Andy first started shipping

some of the true, primary species that he was able to locate to pharmacies,

schools and herb companies that had never received them before......they

complained and/or sent them back to Andy, because they didn't know that what

they had been receiving

all along before that time was not, in fact, the primary material for those

remedies. I have a list of around 40 remedies that have the possibility (from

what I and/or Andy have observed we have previously received here from most

distributors) of being substitute or false material......something which is

consistently an issue with some of these remedies and more variable with others.

And one only needs to remember about the problems we have had regarding Fang Ji

and Mu Tong to recognize there is a major problem here that still needs to be

addressed much more extensively (and the Fang Ji/Mu Tong issue is about

identification....that does not get into the issue of

freshness/quality). Robert Newman

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Emmanuel and Robert...

 

this thread is important one as in the long run it might have bearing of

clinical practice as you indeed mention an example of diarrhoea with large

amounts of He Shou Wu)

 

Now my question to you is:

 

Do you think it is possible to actually file photographs of the wanted

materials plant drugs - herbal medicines in the file section?

 

Is it actually deferent species and so forth or is it the growing and

processing that deferrers?

 

Marco

[Guest guest]

Hi Marco:

 

Marco wrote: Do you think it is possible to actually file photographs of the

wanted materials plant drugs - herbal medicines in the file section?

 

Emmanuel wrote: I'd like to see it happen. I'll see if an online database can

be created.

 

 

Marco wrote: Is it actually deferent species and so forth or is it the growing

and processing that deferrers?

 

Emmanue wrote: It's all of this. Each of the 500+ species commonly imported to

the U.S. each have their own story of differences too extensive to describe in

less than a text. A visual database would be a start. Even then ... Roy Upton

has worked on monographs of just a half dozen or so ... it's taken years.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Emmanuel,

 

Thanks and fascinating...

 

 

 

Was reading something about " bush " medicine in Belize and Guatemala about a

year ago I think and they where promulgating the importance of cutting and

harvesting at the appropriate time. Something they interrelated with spirits

so at the time I ignored it completely but now...

 

 

Marco

[Guest guest]

Marco and Emmanuel, a great idea. let's look at making this

happen. . . .my old friend David Weininger made it happen using Chinese

herb books with color pictures in an experimental data base at little

cost, perhaps we can do something like this with CHA?

 

 

On Sunday, September 21, 2003, at 10:37 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> Hi Marco:

>

> Marco wrote: Do you think it is possible to actually file photographs

> of the wanted materials plant drugs - herbal medicines in the file

> section?

>

> Emmanuel wrote: I'd like to see it happen. I'll see if an online

> database can be created.

>

>

> Marco wrote: Is it actually deferent species and so forth or is it the

> growing and processing that deferrers?

>

> Emmanue wrote: It's all of this. Each of the 500+ species commonly

> imported to the U.S. each have their own story of differences too

> extensive to describe in less than a text. A visual database would be

> a start. Even then ... Roy Upton has worked on monographs of just a

> half dozen or so ... it's taken years.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Marco, Emmanuel-- I was going to say the same thing as Emmanuel

said below......there are problems with identity and names--that is

one separate problem. And there are also problems with freshness and

variations in processing choices and methodology. I have uploaded a

file into the file section of this group.....it lists a lot of the

herbs that have potential or definite issues involving

identification.....I did put a little in at the end about qualitative

problems with certain species that I've observed, but that part is

not complete.

It would indeed be good to have photos. Perhaps Emmanuel would

have access to material regarding freshness and processing

differences.....I certainly don't have that available here (I can

take pictures of excessively old/overdried/Qi-less material--there's

lots of that available to photograph, but have little available from

pharmacies here to produce pictures of what truly fresh, dried

material should look like).

Regarding identification issues, I can take pictures of some of the

incorrect material--the ones we have in the pharmacies around here

these days (and for some of the herbs, I need a close-up lens to

show certain details and the digital camera I have access to is not

equipped for it.....I probably can use my regular 35mm camera for

that and just have the photos digitized....it will just take a little

more time to get the final photos)--but I will not have access to all

of the primary species material for those herbs.....perhaps Emmanuel

does at Asia Natural Products?.....as I mentioned previously, we

usually don't receive the primary species material for some herbs. I

currently have many of those primary species growing in my yard, but

certainly not all--and I don't have enough material of many of the

ones I do have growing to dry them (and/or the proper space to dry

them) so that I can produce pictures.....this is especially the case

for the root or vine medicines: I don't have enough plants or plant

material of the root/vine medicines to be able to pull them up or cut

them off for drying. But I may be able to do that with a few of the

stem/leaf/seed remedies. Anyways, I could take pictures of those

that I do have access to here in the pharmacies and maybe a couple of

others that I can collect and dry myself. There is a grower in

northern CA that I may be able to get some material from of a few

that I can't get or produce myself.

As Mr. Rosenberg stated, there are numerous books from China with

color pictures--ones that have pictures of live plants, ones that

have pictures of the primary/substitute/false dried material, and

some that have something of both those aspects. I would think that

the issue there is whether we can post those pictures on an internet

site without permission from the publishers.

Robert Newman

 

, " Emmanuel Segmen "

<susegmen@i...> wrote:

> Hi Marco:

>

> Marco wrote: Do you think it is possible to actually file

photographs of the wanted materials plant drugs - herbal medicines in

the file section?

>

> Emmanuel wrote: I'd like to see it happen. I'll see if an online

database can be created.

>

>

> Marco wrote: Is it actually deferent species and so forth or is it

the growing and processing that deferrers?

>

> Emmanue wrote: It's all of this. Each of the 500+ species commonly

imported to the U.S. each have their own story of differences too

extensive to describe in less than a text. A visual database would

be a start. Even then ... Roy Upton has worked on monographs of

just a half dozen or so ... it's taken years. ]

[Guest guest]

Robert and All,

 

Ted Smith and Briahn Kelly, both of ACTCM and beyond, are updating their

respective books and cooperating on images of Dr. Liang's herbs at Asia Natural.

This is as I understand it though it's been many months since that was

discussed. In the end, my colleague John Zhang may end up creating a web-based

database.

 

I'll copy to these people as a prod to get the ball rolling.

 

Robert, you are correct in noting that images of the best quality herbs can be a

problem. Selections of any of the 200 to 300 most commonly used herbs are hard

to find at any given moment. We have containers coming into port in most months

of the year except for summertime. So our supply of good quality selections is

usually adequate at most times after about Labor Day until into early summer.

We can't put containers on the water in June, July or early August because the

herbs will cook on the way to California. Having said that, I have to make

contracts for some American companies half a year to a year in advance. I have

8,000 lb of one particular herb in port at this moment that I'm selling to a

particular customer. On the same container I have another 2,000 lb of a formula

of herbs for a different customer. While it's nice to sell large quantities of

herbs directly off of a container to a manufacturer, we also need to consider

the needs of CM clinics that require herbs on a daily basis in very small

amounts. While this is the least profitable part of our business, it's the most

important part for supporting the paradigm of CM. An interesting paradox.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

Merritt College, Asia Natural

-

plantboyman

Monday, September 22, 2003 10:00 AM

Re: Authenticity and freshnes of herbs from

China

 

 

Hi Marco, Emmanuel-- I was going to say the same thing as Emmanuel said

below......there are problems with identity and names--that is one separate

problem. And there are also problems with freshness and variations in

processing choices and methodology. I have uploaded a file into the file

section of this group.....it lists a lot of the herbs that have potential or

definite issues involving identification.....I did put a little in at the end

about qualitative problems with certain species that I've observed, but that

part is not complete. It would indeed be good to have photos. Perhaps

Emmanuel would have access to material regarding freshness and processing

differences.....I certainly don't have that available here (I can take pictures

of excessively old/overdried/Qi-less material--there's

lots of that available to photograph, but have little available from

pharmacies here to produce pictures of what truly fresh, dried material should

look like).

Regarding identification issues, I can take pictures of some of the

incorrect material--the ones we have in the pharmacies around here these days

(and for some of the herbs, I need a close-up lens to show certain details and

the digital camera I have access to is not equipped for it.....I probably can

use my regular 35mm camera for that and just have the photos digitized....it

will just take a little

more time to get the final photos)--but I will not have access to all of the

primary species material for those herbs.....perhaps Emmanuel does at Asia

Natural Products?.....as I mentioned previously, we usually don't receive the

primary species material for some herbs. I

currently have many of those primary species growing in my yard, but certainly

not all--and I don't have enough material of many of the ones I do have growing

to dry them (and/or the proper space to dry them) so that I can produce

pictures.....this is especially the case for the root or vine medicines: I

don't have enough plants or plant

material of the root/vine medicines to be able to pull them up or cut them off

for drying. But I may be able to do that with a few of the stem/leaf/seed

remedies. Anyways, I could take pictures of those that I do have access to here

in the pharmacies and maybe a couple of others that I can collect and dry

myself. There is a grower in northern CA that I may be able to get some

material from of a few that I can't get or produce myself. As Mr. Rosenberg

stated, there are numerous books from China with color pictures--ones that have

pictures of live plants, ones that have pictures of the primary/substitute/false

dried material, and some that have something of both those aspects. I would

think that the issue there is whether we can post those pictures on an internet

site without permission from the publishers.

Robert Newman

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks,

 

As always there are many complicated aspects bhind the scene...

 

Marco

 

 

 

-

" plantboyman " <plantboyman

 

Monday, September 22, 2003 12:00 PM

Re: Authenticity and freshnes of herbs from

China

 

 

> Hi Marco, Emmanuel-- I was going to say the same thing as Emmanuel

> said below......there are problems with identity and names--that is

> one separate problem. And there are also problems with freshness and

> variations in processing choices and methodology. I have uploaded a

> file into the file section of this group.....it lists a lot of the

> herbs that have potential or definite issues involving

> identification.....I did put a little in at the end about qualitative

> problems with certain species that I've observed, but that part is

> not complete.