Guest guest Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 , " " < @e...> wrote: Both Western and Chinese medicine have undergone many changes over the > years. Don't forget that the concept of blood stasis is only a little more > than a century old. Think about how much that concept and the treatment > strategies that come out of it have changed the field! I'd like to clarify this point. Wang qing ren wrote his seminal work on blood stasis almost 200 years ago but the concept of blood stasis is as old as CM. As yan de xin shows, it goes back to the nei jing. It became prevalent only in modern times when the nature of disease pushed it to the forefront. But it is hardly a " new " idea, just a development of an old one. In fact, SHL experts have been using da haung zhe chong wan for almost 2000 years to treat chronic debilitating disorders that originate as blood stasis, which then transforms to heat and consumes the yin. This is exactly the scenario laid out by yan de xin to explain aging rather than the commonly accepted idea that vacuity leads to stasis. Yan has gone to great lengths to root this " new idea " in the classics. As long as any westerner who comes up with new ideas goes to this same painstaking length, I will be satisfied. Aside - if stasis is actully the cause of vacuity as yan suggests, then is conventional TCM wisdom also wrong about conserving essence as the secret of longevity. If stasis is the root, then activities that encourage dispersal are those that lead to better transformation of postnatal essences. since you can add to prenatal essences, the focus should be on best accumulation of postnatal. does this mean that vigorous activity or even sex is better for longevity than abstinence. I believe the one study has already correlated that regular sexual activity in later life is associated with lower morbidity and mortality. a recent study even indicates that a dramatic decline in various female cancers amongst those who came of age during the sexual revolution; while certainly many factors were at play here, increased sexual activity has not resulted in more disease. J Epidemiol Biostat. 2000;5(4):221-31. Age-period-cohort analyses of breast-, ovarian-, endometrial- and cervical- cancer mortality rates for Caucasian women in the USA. Tarone RE, Chu KC. Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA. 2nd aside - while it is true that many foreign herbs have been added to the CM materia medica over the years, it is also true that except for a small number of relatively local herbs from other contiguous parts of Asia (such as Arabia and India), none of these new herbs has had much impact on the development of TCM. Even the imported xi yang shen is more of a folk herb than a classical formula ingredient. In fact, the bulk of texts use the same herbs over and over again, most of which are indigenous to China. In addition, most of the best herbalists I know will all agree that true masters of herbalism use a few formulas and a few herbs to work miracles. As one gets better, one does not need access to more herbs, but actually less. thus, the 5,767 herbs in the zhong yao da ci dian are already over the top. Most are folk herbs with little use outside a village or region. despite their inclusion in this grand dictionary, they rarely appear in even modern formulas. While there is no harm in the act of speculating on western herbs in TCM, I want students to keep this in perspective. Wherever chinese medicine has transplanted itself, it has continued to emphasize the same 300 chinese herbs when practiced by trained professionals. this includes Korea, Taiwan, japan and vietnam. sure, locals color the mix with their own herbs and traditions, but those who practice CM typically stick closely to the core (the japanese are a prime example - while many native substances grow on japan, none are used in Kanpo - literally medicine of the han). I maintain there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. If one wants to add a single herb to a formula based upon folk use or personal speculation, that may be a reasonable clinical decision, but it is not valid TCM until the comunity consensus agrees it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 Dear I had a thought. Could we not hypothesize that rather than abstinence, and our concern for preserving jing as being the essential key to longevity, or rather than viewing invigorating qi and xue as being the keys, practically don't we find in many, if not most seniors the presentation of both of kidney vacuity and blood stasis? I wonder if it's a question of the chicken or the egg, and if shen xu predisposes a patient to qi-xue yu, or visa-versa, or if the two conditions develop simultaneously with aging, and we need to address them both as the root of aging? The flip side, of course, would be that if the key to longevity would be for one to protect one's jing, and simultaneously maintain the smooth flow of qi and blood. Also, could we not theorize that is this also the integrative goal of qi gong exercises, to invigorate the qi on the one hand, but also I wonder that if we are able to engender and cultivate qi by focusing on the dan tian, are we not also engendering the post-heaven or pi jing? Do any of the classical sources address this dicotomy? Humbly yours, Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 I think you are right here, Todd. Wang Qingren developed his ideas on blood stasis in his text, " Correction of Medical Errors " but he also made huge miscalculations and misconceptions about human anatomy. There have been historical developments throughout the history of CM, but nearly every concept has its origins in the Nei Jing. I agree that many great herbalists rely on a relatively small number of prescriptions to work their magic. It is also true that many great herbalists specialize in certain types of patients and conditions. I also use a relatively limited number of prescriptions, but I want access to the whole enchilada when I need the information. On Sunday, September 21, 2003, at 09:47 AM, wrote: > , " " < > @e...> wrote: > > Both Western and Chinese medicine have undergone many changes over the >> years. Don't forget that the concept of blood stasis is only a little >> more >> than a century old. Think about how much that concept and the >> treatment >> strategies that come out of it have changed the field! > > I'd like to clarify this point. Wang qing ren wrote his seminal work > on blood > stasis almost 200 years ago but the concept of blood stasis is as old > as CM. As > yan de xin shows, it goes back to the nei jing. It became prevalent > only in > modern times when the nature of disease pushed it to the forefront. > But it is > hardly a " new " idea, just a development of an old one. In fact, SHL > experts > have been using da haung zhe chong wan for almost 2000 years to treat > chronic debilitating disorders that originate as blood stasis, which > then > transforms to heat and consumes the yin. This is exactly the scenario > laid out > by yan de xin to explain aging rather than the commonly accepted idea > that > vacuity leads to stasis. Yan has gone to great lengths to root this > " new idea " in > the classics. As long as any westerner who comes up with new ideas > goes to > this same painstaking length, I will be satisfied. > > Aside - if stasis is actully the cause of vacuity as yan suggests, > then is > conventional TCM wisdom also wrong about conserving essence as the > secret of > longevity. If stasis is the root, then activities that encourage > dispersal are > those that lead to better transformation of postnatal essences. since > you can > add to prenatal essences, the focus should be on best accumulation of > postnatal. does this mean that vigorous activity or even sex is > better for > longevity than abstinence. I believe the one study has already > correlated that > regular sexual activity in later life is associated with lower > morbidity and > mortality. a recent study even indicates that a dramatic decline in > various > female cancers amongst those who came of age during the sexual > revolution; > while certainly many factors were at play here, increased sexual > activity has > not resulted in more disease. > > J Epidemiol Biostat. 2000;5(4):221-31. > Age-period-cohort analyses of breast-, ovarian-, endometrial- and > cervical- > cancer mortality rates for Caucasian women in the USA. > Tarone RE, Chu KC. > Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics, National Cancer > Institute, > Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA. > > > 2nd aside - while it is true that many foreign herbs have been added > to the > CM materia medica over the years, it is also true that except for a > small > number of relatively local herbs from other contiguous parts of Asia > (such as > Arabia and India), none of these new herbs has had much impact on the > development of TCM. Even the imported xi yang shen is more of a folk > herb > than a classical formula ingredient. In fact, the bulk of texts use > the same > herbs over and over again, most of which are indigenous to China. In > addition, > most of the best herbalists I know will all agree that true masters of > herbalism > use a few formulas and a few herbs to work miracles. As one gets > better, one > does not need access to more herbs, but actually less. thus, the > 5,767 herbs in > the zhong yao da ci dian are already over the top. Most are folk > herbs with > little use outside a village or region. despite their inclusion in > this grand > dictionary, they rarely appear in even modern formulas. > > While there is no harm in the act of speculating on western herbs in > TCM, I > want students to keep this in perspective. Wherever chinese medicine > has > transplanted itself, it has continued to emphasize the same 300 > chinese herbs > when practiced by trained professionals. this includes Korea, Taiwan, > japan > and vietnam. sure, locals color the mix with their own herbs and > traditions, > but those who practice CM typically stick closely to the core (the > japanese are > a prime example - while many native substances grow on japan, none are > used > in Kanpo - literally medicine of the han). I maintain there is no > reason to > reinvent the wheel. If one wants to add a single herb to a formula > based upon > folk use or personal speculation, that may be a reasonable clinical > decision, but > it is not valid TCM until the comunity consensus agrees it is. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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