Guest guest Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 Does anyone have information about tonics, particularly kidney tonics like shu di huang, being contraindicated in patients with a history of breast cancer? The question came up in a patient in her late 50's with a history of breast cancer who was seeking herbs for hot flashes. Zhi bai di huang wan seemed like the indicated formula, but there was some concern about using shu di huang with her. Are there other herbs that would be contraindicated in people with estrogen related cancers? Dang Gui? Thanks, Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 The only concerns about supplementing medicinals in cancer I've seen were in an article based on the opinions of Subhuti Dharmananda. No studies have ever been done to my knowledge on this subject. My hunch is that some individuals may have the (probably mistaken) opinion that certain herbs, because they nourish yin and blood, such as shu di huang and dang gui are 'estrogenic', and therefore may aggravate estrogen-dependent tumors. However, again there are no studies to confirm this. Speculations about dang gui being 'estrogenic', because it is known as a 'woman's herb', are totally false. As you know, not all breast cancers are estrogenic, nor is the end result of the complex pharmacology of Chinese herbal prescriptions an estrogenic one. My advice is that if the prescription (zhi bai di huang wan) matches the patients pattern differentiation (I assume as well as night sweats she will have a red tongue and thin, wiry possibly rapid pulse), go ahead and use it. Generally speaking, prescribing herbal prescriptions to match a pattern differentiation will eliminate concerns about aggravating cancer. By the way, the term tonics is not accurate for bu yao/supplementing medicinals, as the Western concept of tonics doesn't necessarily jive with the Chinese definition of supplementing medicinals. For example, bitter tonics such as golden seal don't supplement qi, blood, yin or yang, but increase peristalsis and passage time in digestion. On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 07:54 PM, ajeffres wrote: > Does anyone have information about tonics, particularly kidney tonics > like > shu di huang, being contraindicated in patients with a history of > breast cancer? > The question came up in a patient in her late 50's with a history of > breast > cancer who was seeking herbs for hot flashes. Zhi bai di huang wan > seemed like > the indicated formula, but there was some concern about using shu di > huang > with her. Are there other herbs that would be contraindicated in > people with > estrogen related cancers? Dang Gui? > Thanks, > Anne > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 Z'ev, When you dispute the use of the term " tonics " for Chinese supplementing herbs, aren't you mixing Western and Chinese herbology terms? Yes, tonic means something different in Western herbalism, but why can't we use " tonic " for our own supplementing herbs? Must we ban the common usage in all the standard books (Bensky, Hsu, Maciocia) and even avoid such phrases as " tonify the spleen " ? Julie - " " <zrosenbe Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:48 PM Re: kidney tonics & breast cancer > > By the way, the term tonics is not accurate for bu yao/supplementing > medicinals, as the Western concept of tonics doesn't necessarily jive > with the Chinese definition of supplementing medicinals. > > For example, bitter tonics such as golden seal don't supplement qi, > blood, yin or yang, but increase peristalsis and passage time in > digestion. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 , " " wrote: Generally speaking, prescribing herbal prescriptions to match a pattern differentiation will eliminate concerns about aggravating cancer. >>> I agree with Z'ev. Besides, a look through the herbal literature--- both in Chinese and in English---should reassure you since these herbs are used in many types of cancer formulas. For example, Shi Quan Da Bu Tang is often used to support the zheng (Upright) qi in many cancer situations. I've frequently used strong bu yao/supplementing formulas along with acupuncture, and their chemo and radiation with good results. In some ways, I think you need to be more careful with acupuncture. You can sometimes easily stimulate or aggravate cancer if your treatment strategy is wrong. I remember one prostate cancer patient who went to a Reiki conference and got worked on daily. Because they opened up the qi flow indiscriminantly, his PSA shot way up quickly. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 My advice is that if the prescription (zhi bai di huang wan) matches the patients pattern differentiation (I assume as well as night sweats she will have a red tongue and thin, wiry possibly rapid pulse), go ahead and use it. Generally speaking, prescribing herbal prescriptions to match a pattern differentiation will eliminate concerns about aggravating cancer. >>>>Zev the only anecdote i can contribute, which really means very little, is one patient (actually friend) that had breast ca and very clear zhi bai di huang pattern which i gave her. Her cancer very rapidly advanced. Now i have no idea if the herbs has anything to do with it but even after 12 years i still wander from time to time Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 I recently had a patient with a zhi bai di huang wan pattern, and I gave her this prescription while she was undergoing radiation for breast cancer treatment, as she developed a lot of yin vacuity heat. She did fabulously, and has no recurrence until this day. As you know, there is a lot of unpredictability with cancer, that is one of the qualities that is so frightening to patients and practitioners alike. I seriously doubt your herbs had anything to do with the patient's rapid degeneration, but I understand your second thoughts and concerns. Like it or not, we are seeing more and more cancer patients, and the subject is coming up more in our journals and papers (Acupuncture Today, for one), and in postings on this list and others. We need to start sharing our data and experiences. On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 11:03 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > My advice is that if the prescription (zhi bai di huang wan) matches > the patients pattern differentiation (I assume as well as night sweats > she will have a red tongue and thin, wiry possibly rapid pulse), go > ahead and use it. Generally speaking, prescribing herbal prescriptions > to match a pattern differentiation will eliminate concerns about > aggravating cancer. >>>>> Zev the only anecdote i can contribute, which really means very >>>>> little, is one patient (actually friend) that had breast ca and >>>>> very clear zhi bai di huang pattern which i gave her. Her cancer >>>>> very rapidly advanced. Now i have no idea if the herbs has >>>>> anything to do with it but even after 12 years i still wander from >>>>> time to time > Alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 Anne, Perhaps the concern is due to the fact that shu di huang is extremely cloying, and with cancer there is a certain degree of stagnation and heat, which might be deemed a contraindication. Andrea Beth ajeffres wrote: Does anyone have information about tonics, particularly kidney tonics like shu di huang, being contraindicated in patients with a history of breast cancer? The question came up in a patient in her late 50's with a history of breast cancer who was seeking herbs for hot flashes. Zhi bai di huang wan seemed like the indicated formula, but there was some concern about using shu di huang with her. Are there other herbs that would be contraindicated in people with estrogen related cancers? Dang Gui? Thanks, Anne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 I don't think this is necessarily the case. It depends on the stage of the disease, the specifics, and, of course, the pattern differentiation. On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 04:07 PM, wrote: > Anne, > > Perhaps the concern is due to the fact that shu di huang is extremely > cloying, and with cancer there is a certain degree of stagnation and > heat, which might be deemed a contraindication. > > Andrea Beth > > ajeffres wrote: > Does anyone have information about tonics, particularly kidney tonics > like > shu di huang, being contraindicated in patients with a history of > breast cancer? > The question came up in a patient in her late 50's with a history of > breast > cancer who was seeking herbs for hot flashes. Zhi bai di huang wan > seemed like > the indicated formula, but there was some concern about using shu di > huang > with her. Are there other herbs that would be contraindicated in > people with > estrogen related cancers? Dang Gui? > Thanks, > Anne > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2003 Report Share Posted October 1, 2003 , wrote: > Perhaps the concern is due to the fact that shu di huang is extremely cloying, and with cancer there is a certain degree of stagnation and heat, which might be deemed a contraindication. Andrea: While it may aggrevate some stagnation and swelling if not mixed with the correct supportive herbs, it is not a contraindication to the cancer itself. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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