Guest guest Posted September 22, 2003 Report Share Posted September 22, 2003 Cara, I would be interested in your response to greg's question. and i'd like to know your criteria for asserting that the liquid extracts are higher quality than powders. I appreciate your sensitivity to commercializing the list, but I think that this is an appropriate topic and that many could benefit from your experience. thanks, Dean - Cara Frank Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:35 PM Re: crude herbs vs. extracts Please contact me off list on this -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company > > Thanks for your response. I am curious as to what your liquid concentrates > are. Are they formulas that you decoct there and package or is there a form > of this manufactured that you aquire and then dispense? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 This is at best a very limited reply. I have dispensed both crude herbs and extracts from my own pharmacy in the past. My sense has always been that crude herbs are better, and more wholesome, but that concentrates are a good approximation of the real thing. A way of putting this is that concentrates approximate better to the original than a very good quality instant coffee does to real coffee. I've found some exceptions to this rule, however. Warming prescriptions such as Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan are much less warming in concentrate form, and sleeping herbs can be better in crude form. One of the reasons my experience in this is limited is that I only used crude herbs for the first several years of my herbal practice, but then, after offering patients either for about a year or two, went over to concentrates and pills almost exclusively, largely due to popular demand. If one wants to be subtle about it, my perception is that some of the vibes/qi is lost in the process of making concentrates, but from a more pharmacolgical point of view, I don't feel that this makes much difference therapeutically, and patient compliance with respect to people actually taking their herbs in an uninterrupted fashion without aggravation greatly outweighs the advantages of using crude herbs. Of course, one can't prepare concentrates (by carbonizing them, for example), but in the UK, a firm is now producing concentrates of prepared medicinals, such as Ai Ye Tan, Du Zhong Chao, etc., increasing the usefulness of concentrates as a substitute for crude herbs. If one has a personal pharmacy, it requires a lot of maintenance to provide both crude herbs and concentrates. Quality control is also an issue, and with concentrates, one has the advantage of the resources of a relatively large company with state of the art quality assessment. My suppliers have told me that they have failed to find pesticides, bacteria, and other contaminants in concentrates they have tested. Also, the consensus seems to be that concentrates have a very long shelf life. They are also not prone to insect infestation, which can be a real pain with crude herbs. If one is preparing the equivalent of several packets of herbs, using concentrates is much less of a hassle, and if one often uses standard formulas to which one perhaps adds extra herbs, then it is possible to order those herbal formulas already made up, which again simplifies matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Please contact me off list on this -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company > > Thanks for your response. I am curious as to what your liquid concentrates > are. Are they formulas that you decoct there and package or is there a form > of this manufactured that you aquire and then dispense? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Hi Dean, I play a role in this industry. I worked as the American marketing supervisor for Min Tong Herbs in 1992, 93, and 94 before coming to my current company. I got a bit of training at the factories in Taiwan. The simple answer to your question is that powdered extracts start out as liquid extracts. If you stop the manufacturing process there and preserve the contents with alcohol, you have something less processed than powders, more likely to have a broader spectrum of what's native to the plants, and more likely to mimic the decoctions of traditional empiricism. Emmanuel Segmen Merritt College, Asia Natural - Dean Militello Monday, September 22, 2003 12:58 PM Re: crude herbs vs. extracts Cara, I would be interested in your response to greg's question. and i'd like to know your criteria for asserting that the liquid extracts are higher quality than powders. I appreciate your sensitivity to commercializing the list, but I think that this is an appropriate topic and that many could benefit from your experience. thanks, Dean - Cara Frank Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:35 PM Re: crude herbs vs. extracts Please contact me off list on this -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company > > Thanks for your response. I am curious as to what your liquid concentrates > are. Are they formulas that you decoct there and package or is there a form > of this manufactured that you aquire and then dispense? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 , " Dean Militello " <windwater5> wrote: > Cara, I would be interested in your response to greg's question. and i'd like to know your criteria for asserting that the liquid extracts are higher quality than powders. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cara, ditto, i'm interested in this as well. thanks, robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 OK, OK! the liquids that we carry at China Herb are not alcohol extractions, but rather they are decocted in a concentrated way. Like orange juice concentrate. Alcohol is added afterwards to preserve the product and prevent bacterial growth. The ratio is 7:1. the herbs carry the integrity of raw herbs. The rou gui¹s acrid constituents bite the nose and taste like a cinnamon stick. The mint is minty. The xing ren is rich with the aroma of apricots. When you smell the yin qiao san and xiao yao san, the aroma of mint hits you first. So the volatile constituents are preserved. The mucilage content of che qian zi is totally preserved: and can be so thick that we sometimes have to dilute it with alcohol so we can pour it. the experience of these concentrates is far and away superior to alcohol extractions. The flavor, the thermal nature, the qi itself maintains it¹s integrity. And because we are a compounding pharmacy, formulas can be custom made to suit the patients needs. Disadvantages: we cannot concentrate glues ( e jiao, etc), gums ( mo yao, etc.) and minerals. We do have mu li, long gu, bie jia, gui ban. Our da huang is cooked short: so it¹s use is as a laxative and not a blood mover. But it¹s impossible to maintain an inventory that includes every preparatory variance and there are many other choices in that category anyway powdered extractions, while convient and extremely popular ( we carry KPC¹s line, but there are many quality suppliers) feel dead in comparison. And yet, despite what I have written, my real love, my first love, is raw herbs -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company > > " kampo36 " <kampo36 > > Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:40:43 -0000 > > Re: crude herbs vs. extracts > > , " Dean Militello " > <windwater5> wrote: >> > Cara, I would be interested in your response to greg's question. > and i'd like to know your criteria for asserting that the liquid > extracts are higher quality than powders. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Cara, > > ditto, i'm interested in this as well. > > thanks, > robert hayden > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 I've tried these concentrates, and I like them a lot. But I must point out that Kan's herb extractions are 50/50 water and alcohol, and I think they are a superior product as well. Only one or two companies still make alcohol-only extractions, to my knowledge. On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 04:19 PM, Cara Frank wrote: > the experience of these concentrates is far and away superior to > alcohol > extractions. The flavor, the thermal nature, the qi itself maintains > it’s > integrity. And because we are a compounding pharmacy, formulas can be > custom > made to suit the patients needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Ours are 20% alcohol. Far east summit has also developed a line ( can't remember the exact name) that is low alcohol. Also in the spirit of fairness: one more disadvantage of extractions and concentrates: they are not appropriate for people in alcohol recovery. Even 20% is enough to trigger craving. We also had one person with a grain allergy. He used raw herbs. -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company > " " <zrosenbe > > Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:29:48 -0700 > > Re: crude herbs vs. extracts > > I've tried these concentrates, and I like them a lot. But I must point > out that Kan's herb extractions are 50/50 water and alcohol, and I > think they are a superior product as well. Only one or two companies > still make alcohol-only extractions, to my knowledge. > > > On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 04:19 PM, Cara Frank wrote: > >> the experience of these concentrates is far and away superior to >> alcohol >> extractions. The flavor, the thermal nature, the qi itself maintains >> it’s >> integrity. And because we are a compounding pharmacy, formulas can be >> custom >> made to suit the patients needs. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 I agree with this. On Wednesday, October 15, 2003, at 04:40 PM, Cara Frank wrote: > Also in the spirit of fairness: one more disadvantage of extractions > and > concentrates: they are not appropriate for people in alcohol recovery. > Even > 20% is enough to trigger craving. We also had one person with a grain > allergy. He used raw herbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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