Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Emmanuel et al, This response is about 2 weeks late. But better late..... One of my first teachers was Simon Mills. He is heading the botanical program at Tai Sophia, where I am heading up the Chinese herb dept. Over the summer I had the pleasure of a lovely verbal spar with him. He feels strongly that herbs should be used to " tweak " a persons health. That herbs " nudge " a body towards a righteous function. But what about herbs that resolve phlegm? Herbs that drain dampness. Diaphoretics? Herbs that give a clear directive? No he responded- it's still a tweak. A nudge. His faith in the body's power of recovery is awesome to me. But I struggled with this issue, especially as I am entering a nearly 3 year relationship with a 5 element school and I am an outsider. And that one of my missions is to empower my students to fix stuff. To successfully manage acute syndromes. it took me to the shen nong ben cao. Shen Nong's classification of lower class herbs describes medicinals that are not intended for long use due to their aggressive and toxic nature. I wanted historical permission for pushing. So I'm asking: if we use ma huang are we nudging? Doesn't seem so. When we treat acute URI's or any acute problem are we nudging or pushing and how do we define this. Where are the boundaries? >> I hope this helps. I took the time to post a number of times earlier in the >> year regarding the complexity of herb formulas taken orally. Yes, the >> thousands of interacting and permutating molecular reactions of CM herbal >> formulas is unlike anything that is presented in WM or Western science. My >> sense is that CM formulas stimulate, calm or regulate the human physiology >> in such a way that tissues, organs, systems secrete (and then respond to) >> the body's own molecules in physiologically appropriate dosages. Externally >> applied biological end-products like estrogen or cortisol simply shuts down >> the homeostatic system while the pharmacological dosage is being metabolized >> by the body. From what I've seen in CM research in Taiwanese, Japanese and >> mainland Chinese research articles is that CM herbal formulas function in a >> variety of ways. Like acupuncture, they do not rely so much on delivering >> " biological end molecules " but rather cause the physiology to deliver it's >> own internal dosaging of appropriate molecules. I believe many can >> appreciate that what I'm describing as " internal dosaging " is of molecules >> both known and (perhaps mostly) not yet discovered in dosages that fluctuate >> by the second according to homeostatic feedback mechanisms. I personally >> view CM (whether acupuncture, herb formulas, tui na or moxa) as being >> considerably more subtle, more complex and often more efficacious than the >> blunt delivery of molecular medicines. Yes, the molecular medicines require >> liver and kidney detoxification in addition to the homeostatic shutdowns or >> imbalances that they often cause. >> >> That's the " with an explanation " answer. Regarding Phil's Quack-buster >> issues, anything that's not in the paradigm of WM can technically be >> targeted as quackery by those who wish to ignore efficacy and demand >> " mechanisms of action " . However, these days Medline reports thousands of >> peer-reviewed papers on CM indicating efficacy and yet noting " mechanism of >> action unknown " . If it's okay for Western science, it'll have to be okay >> for Western medicine. >> >> In gratitude for your patient reading, >> Emmanuel Segmen >> >> >> - >> " " <zrosenbe >> >> Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:40 AM >> Re: Herbal use in patients with >> steroid-sensitive conditions? >> >> >> No offense taken, Phil. I agree that we need to make our ground on >> this issue less shaky, not just expert (thank you, Phil) opinion. At >> the same time, we shouldn't swallow speculation and fear to the >> opposite about 'estrogenic herbs, either from articles or from studies >> that I really wonder about their accuracy. I'd raise the question of >> how we perceive herbal medicines to work as opposed to pharmaceutical >> drugs, especially when we combine them in prescriptions. There are >> presently no mechanisms to study herb interactions in prescriptions, >> although we can safely say that there are more complex interactions and >> more complex pharmacodyamics in the body that with most medications. >> >> Unlike synthetic hormones, the body metabolizes and discharges excess >> substances more readily from a natural source, especially one that >> doesn't supply the hormone in a direct fashion. >> >> Emmanuel, I think I need your help here. I am not so well versed in >> pharmacology as you and Phil. >> >> >> >> ______________________ >> ______________________ >> >> Message: 22 >> Wed, 1 Oct 2003 22:39:57 -0500 >> " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus >> Re: Herbal use in patients with steroid-sensitive conditions? >> >> There is some discussion on how herbs are metabolized differently than >> drugs in Simon Mills' text, " Principles and Practice of Phytotherapy " . >> >> `>>>Is there actual data their or just discussion >> Alon >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Cara, I agree that there are a variety of ways in which formulas and CM in general affect the body. Obviously in the acute case you may desire more than a nudge. I'm just now recovering from an injury I sustained on Sunday morning. In fact now on Wednesday evening I'm through it almost completely. On Sunday morning at my own mile 20 of a 21 mile leg (of a 199 mile relay event) I was on an all out sprint downhill in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I had run out of water a couple of miles earlier and had refused offers from the sidelines because I was hell bent on finishing at top speed. Less than a mile before the finish, my left plantaris muscle cramped, and then I slammed down on it ... couldn't control the downhill momentum. Pretty nasty injury resulted. My van of runners was following me, and one of them relieved me ... so the race for the team turned out well ... pretty badly for me. I could barely stand the pain of just standing up, but I remembered what Dr. Kang taught about qi flow ... and the all pain is stasis. I shoved my thumb into the stomach meridian on the anterior of the leg and held it closed for 60 intensely painful seconds and released it. That improved flow of qi through the injured muscle on the posterior aspect of the leg since the meridians are connected. I worked it both ways (on the back and the front). By Monday morning I could run a little. By today I was back to interval training for the half marathon in San Francisco this Sunday. My point here it that I got the qi to flow through an injured area, prevented stasis and (painfully) tonified with exercise. Dr. Kang always said that acupuncture was a good tonic, herbs were a better tonic, and exercise was the best tonic. I carried out my miniscule knowledge of CM on my own physiology successfully. If you want to call getting the qi to flow " nudging " , I think that's fair. In the acute setting, the " nudging " may have to be " shoving " . But isn't it the body's own programming that carries the day? We nudge, we shove, we hold back the qi for a minute to let it burst forth, we tonify ... but it's the body's own programming that we are regulating and adjusting when we are doing all of this. Your billions of cells with cellular, tissue, organ and system programming could rightfully be called Team Cara. The programming is powerful. Cara is a powerful galaxy of cells! In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Emmanuel et al, This response is about 2 weeks late. But better late..... One of my first teachers was Simon Mills. He is heading the botanical program at Tai Sophia, where I am heading up the Chinese herb dept. Over the summer I had the pleasure of a lovely verbal spar with him. He feels strongly that herbs should be used to " tweak " a persons health. That herbs " nudge " a body towards a righteous function. But what about herbs that resolve phlegm? Herbs that drain dampness. Diaphoretics? Herbs that give a clear directive? No he responded- it's still a tweak. A nudge. His faith in the body's power of recovery is awesome to me. But I struggled with this issue, especially as I am entering a nearly 3 year relationship with a 5 element school and I am an outsider. And that one of my missions is to empower my students to fix stuff. To successfully manage acute syndromes. it took me to the shen nong ben cao. Shen Nong's classification of lower class herbs describes medicinals that are not intended for long use due to their aggressive and toxic nature. I wanted historical permission for pushing. So I'm asking: if we use ma huang are we nudging? Doesn't seem so. When we treat acute URI's or any acute problem are we nudging or pushing and how do we define this. Where are the boundaries? >> I hope this helps. I took the time to post a number of times earlier in the >> year regarding the complexity of herb formulas taken orally. Yes, the >> thousands of interacting and permutating molecular reactions of CM herbal >> formulas is unlike anything that is presented in WM or Western science. My >> sense is that CM formulas stimulate, calm or regulate the human physiology >> in such a way that tissues, organs, systems secrete (and then respond to) >> the body's own molecules in physiologically appropriate dosages. Externally >> applied biological end-products like estrogen or cortisol simply shuts down >> the homeostatic system while the pharmacological dosage is being metabolized >> by the body. From what I've seen in CM research in Taiwanese, Japanese and >> mainland Chinese research articles is that CM herbal formulas function in a >> variety of ways. Like acupuncture, they do not rely so much on delivering >> " biological end molecules " but rather cause the physiology to deliver it's >> own internal dosaging of appropriate molecules. I believe many can >> appreciate that what I'm describing as " internal dosaging " is of molecules >> both known and (perhaps mostly) not yet discovered in dosages that fluctuate >> by the second according to homeostatic feedback mechanisms. I personally >> view CM (whether acupuncture, herb formulas, tui na or moxa) as being >> considerably more subtle, more complex and often more efficacious than the >> blunt delivery of molecular medicines. Yes, the molecular medicines require >> liver and kidney detoxification in addition to the homeostatic shutdowns or >> imbalances that they often cause. >> >> That's the " with an explanation " answer. Regarding Phil's Quack-buster >> issues, anything that's not in the paradigm of WM can technically be >> targeted as quackery by those who wish to ignore efficacy and demand >> " mechanisms of action " . However, these days Medline reports thousands of >> peer-reviewed papers on CM indicating efficacy and yet noting " mechanism of >> action unknown " . If it's okay for Western science, it'll have to be okay >> for Western medicine. >> >> In gratitude for your patient reading, >> Emmanuel Segmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Emmanuel and Cara Thanks alot for the thoughts. It occurs to me when reading your exchange that this may be an instance of acupuncture theory affecting herbal strategies. The oppositte is more generally true from my experience. Many modern acupuncture texts and some of the standardized TCM approaches (in China and the west) are based on creating " acupuncture prescriptions " much like an herbal prescription in which the " functions " of the individual points are considered as a means of creating a net synergistic effect. I respectfully disagree with this approach as it completely fails to consider the meridian system. My experience has been that some of the most effective acupuncture approaches come from considering first the meridian that is affected then proceding to choose individual points based on how they effect the qi in that meridian or the others to which it is related. In the case of Cara's teacher, might it be possible that he (or she) is taking a Five Element acupuncture style of thinking and applying it to herbs. From my (admittedly limited) experience with the Five Element style, it seems that the goal is to create a very gentle stimulus that creates a chain reaction of healing..... a nudge. I ask those of you out there with more experience with Five Element acupuncture to either verify or refute . regards Jason Robertson Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China home-86-010-8405-0531 cell- 86-010-13520155800 The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Wishing you a speedy recovery. Recover well. And next time don¹t be so stubborn: drink the darn water! -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company > > " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen > > Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:23:18 -0700 > > Re: Musings > > Cara, > > I agree that there are a variety of ways in which formulas and CM in general > affect the body. Obviously in the acute case you may desire more than a > nudge. I'm just now recovering from an injury I sustained on Sunday morning. > In fact now on Wednesday evening I'm through it almost completely. On Sunday > morning at my own mile 20 of a 21 mile leg (of a 199 mile relay event) I was > on an all out sprint downhill in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I had run out of > water a couple of miles earlier and had refused offers from the sidelines > because I was hell bent on finishing at top speed. Less than a mile before > the finish, my left plantaris muscle cramped, and then I slammed down on it > ... couldn't control the downhill momentum. Pretty nasty injury resulted. My > van of runners was following me, and one of them relieved me ... so the race > for the team turned out well ... pretty badly for me. I could barely stand > the pain of just standing up, but I remembered what Dr. Kang taught about qi > flow ... and the all pain is stasis. I shoved my thumb into the stomach > meridian on the anterior of the leg and held it closed for 60 intensely > painful seconds and released it. That improved flow of qi through the injured > muscle on the posterior aspect of the leg since the meridians are connected. > I worked it both ways (on the back and the front). By Monday morning I could > run a little. By today I was back to interval training for the half marathon > in San Francisco this Sunday. My point here it that I got the qi to flow > through an injured area, prevented stasis and (painfully) tonified with > exercise. Dr. Kang always said that acupuncture was a good tonic, herbs were > a better tonic, and exercise was the best tonic. I carried out my miniscule > knowledge of CM on my own physiology successfully. If you want to call > getting the qi to flow " nudging " , I think that's fair. In the acute setting, > the " nudging " may have to be " shoving " . But isn't it the body's own > programming that carries the day? We nudge, we shove, we hold back the qi for > a minute to let it burst forth, we tonify ... but it's the body's own > programming that we are regulating and adjusting when we are doing all of > this. Your billions of cells with cellular, tissue, organ and system > programming could rightfully be called Team Cara. The programming is > powerful. Cara is a powerful galaxy of cells! > > In gratitude, > Emmanuel Segmen > > Emmanuel et al, > This response is about 2 weeks late. But better late..... > > One of my first teachers was Simon Mills. He is heading the botanical > program at Tai Sophia, where I am heading up the Chinese herb dept. Over the > summer I had the pleasure of a lovely verbal spar with him. > > He feels strongly that herbs should be used to " tweak " a persons health. > That herbs " nudge " a body towards a righteous function. > > But what about herbs that resolve phlegm? Herbs that drain dampness. > Diaphoretics? Herbs that give a clear directive? No he responded- it's still > a tweak. A nudge. His faith in the body's power of recovery is awesome to > me. > > But I struggled with this issue, especially as I am entering a nearly 3 year > relationship with a 5 element school and I am an outsider. And that one of > my missions is to empower my students to fix stuff. To successfully manage > acute syndromes. > > it took me to the shen nong ben cao. Shen Nong's classification of lower > class herbs describes medicinals that are not intended for long use due to > their aggressive and toxic nature. I wanted historical permission for > pushing. > So I'm asking: if we use ma huang are we nudging? Doesn't seem so. When we > treat acute URI's or any acute problem are we nudging or pushing and how do > we define this. Where are the boundaries? > > > >>> >> I hope this helps. I took the time to post a number of times earlier >>> in the >>> >> year regarding the complexity of herb formulas taken orally. Yes, the >>> >> thousands of interacting and permutating molecular reactions of CM >>> herbal >>> >> formulas is unlike anything that is presented in WM or Western science. My >>> >> sense is that CM formulas stimulate, calm or regulate the human >>> physiology >>> >> in such a way that tissues, organs, systems secrete (and then respond to) >>> >> the body's own molecules in physiologically appropriate dosages. >>> Externally >>> >> applied biological end-products like estrogen or cortisol simply shuts down >>> >> the homeostatic system while the pharmacological dosage is being >>> metabolized >>> >> by the body. From what I've seen in CM research in Taiwanese, Japanese and >>> >> mainland Chinese research articles is that CM herbal formulas function in a >>> >> variety of ways. Like acupuncture, they do not rely so much on >>> delivering >>> >> " biological end molecules " but rather cause the physiology to deliver it's >>> >> own internal dosaging of appropriate molecules. I believe many can >>> >> appreciate that what I'm describing as " internal dosaging " is of >>> molecules >>> >> both known and (perhaps mostly) not yet discovered in dosages that >>> fluctuate >>> >> by the second according to homeostatic feedback mechanisms. I >>> personally >>> >> view CM (whether acupuncture, herb formulas, tui na or moxa) as being >>> >> considerably more subtle, more complex and often more efficacious than the >>> >> blunt delivery of molecular medicines. Yes, the molecular medicines >>> require >>> >> liver and kidney detoxification in addition to the homeostatic >>> shutdowns or >>> >> imbalances that they often cause. >>> >> >>> >> That's the " with an explanation " answer. Regarding Phil's Quack-buster >>> >> issues, anything that's not in the paradigm of WM can technically be >>> >> targeted as quackery by those who wish to ignore efficacy and demand >>> >> " mechanisms of action " . However, these days Medline reports thousands of >>> >> peer-reviewed papers on CM indicating efficacy and yet noting >>> " mechanism of >>> >> action unknown " . If it's okay for Western science, it'll have to be okay >>> >> for Western medicine. >>> >> >>> >> In gratitude for your patient reading, >>> >> Emmanuel Segmen > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 In a message dated 10/15/2003 4:39:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, herbbabe writes: > So I'm asking: if we use ma huang are we nudging? Doesn't seem so. When we > treat acute URI's or any acute problem are we nudging or pushing and how do > we define this. Where are the boundaries? Hi Cara - I agree with you on this. It would appear that Simon's view point does not capture the full range of prescribing practices. As such, it is a preference rather than a natural law. The boundaries between physiological prescribing and pharmacological prescribing are largely dose dependent. But, they are also highly dependent on the therapeutic strategy employed, the angle you rightly employ in your debate. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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