Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 At 02:54 PM 10/16/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Emmanuel, and Absolutely Everybody > From time to time I get lulled into the >impression that this issue has been >put to bed. But I see that it remains a >point of controversy. > >So, here we go again... > >Ken Oh Dear! Ken, you and most of the rest of this group know where I stand on the issue and yet, I don't believe that belaboring the point in this forum yet again really does anything for anyone. You and I and others will not be likely to change anyone's mind by going through it all again and those who are open to having their mind changed can do so without our pushing (nudging?). Tools like Wenlin, all of Nigel's translation and language texts and books like Jiao, SHL and others that are beginnign to appear with characters, transliteration and translation will guide this disucssion, not us trying to convince people one by one. But, I am curious about the China Academy process. What is their process? Is the group all Chinese? Are they starting completely from scratch or are they using texts like the Dictionary as a basis from which to begin? Is it going to be a biomedicalized translation of terms? what are they doing? Marnae > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of >professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Thanks, Ken. Point well taken. I find amusement with all traditions of language and am happy to work within the frameworks of both oral and written traditions. Your presentation, in that it seeks ease of use in the linguistic setting, is an important one. Forgive me if I'm always amused when the poetry of oral traditions meets the term standardization of written traditions. Recall that Homer (who was probably a whole gaggle of poets) somehow " wrote " the rune that became the Iliad and the Odyssey. I'm always fascinated by transition points and boundaries. I guess that's why I love living and running where the land meets the ocean. All the Best, Emmanuel Segmen - kenrose2008 Thursday, October 16, 2003 7:54 AM Re: Term standardization Emmanuel, and Absolutely Everybody My first lesson in language that came relatively late in my early schooling, was and remains, " You have to know the rules in order to break them. " Term standards do not shackle users. They allow us to know and subsequently break the rules that come with specific languages, term sets, and so on. Now that we have the Practical Dictionary, I believe people are freer in their use of language than before. If we had another comprehensively collated bilingual gloss with a published methodology allowing users full access to the rationale and, indeed, the process from which the terms chosen derive, the whole scene would be freer still. I doubt that this will happen soon, but I am certain that it will happen eventually. The Chinese project at the China Academy of TCM is on track, at least the last time I checked in with it, to produce a bilingual gloss of some 6,000 terms or more that will wind up in Microsoft translation engines. Then we'll have a term standard of sorts. We'll have to wait and see what the final results look like. It does not cramp or squeeze the subject or anyone or anything in it into anything at all to have a simple standardized list of terms showing Chinese originals and English equivalents. It has just the opposite effect. Sorry if that seems counter-intuitive to anyone. But it's accurate. Nigel has provided not just such a list but complete accompanying documentation informing anyone who simply cares enough to read it exactly how the list was developed. Nigel has been reviled here and elsewhere as a tyrant hell-bent on a Nazi-style enslavement of the whole profession...if not the whole human race...because he strongly advocates the adoption and ongoing development of a functioning term standard. From time to time I get lulled into the impression that this issue has been put to bed. But I see that it remains a point of controversy. So, here we go again... Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 I am also interested in details on this project. On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 08:15 AM, Marnae Ergil wrote: > But, I am curious about the China Academy process. What is their > process? Is the group all Chinese? Are they starting completely from > scratch or are they using texts like the Dictionary as a basis from > which > to begin? Is it going to be a biomedicalized translation of terms? > what > are they doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 Hi Ken, Here's some general meanings for meme ... meanings for meme sounds like an oxymoron, but ... Perhaps you can direct us to your own sense of " cultural substrate " when it comes to memes. Meme: [1] A unit of cultural information, such as a cultural practice or idea, that is transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another. [2] [shortening (modeled on gene), of mimeme from Greek mimma, something imitated, from mimeisthai, to imitate. See mimesis.] [3] <philosophy> /meem/ [by analogy with " gene " ] Richard Dawkins's term for an idea considered as a replicator, especially with the connotation that memes parasitise people into propagating them much as viruses do. Memes can be considered the unit of cultural evolution. Ideas can evolve in a way analogous to biological evolution. Some ideas survive better than others; ideas can mutate through, for example, misunderstandings; and two ideas can recombine to produce a new idea involving elements of each parent idea. The term is used especially in the phrase " meme complex " denoting a group of mutually supporting memes that form an organised belief system, such as a religion. However, " meme " is often misused to mean " meme complex " . Use of the term connotes acceptance of the idea that in humans (and presumably other tool- and language-using sophonts) cultural evolution by selection of adaptive ideas has become more important than biological evolution by selection of hereditary traits. Hackers find this idea congenial for tolerably obvious reasons. See also memetic algorithm. [4] · any expression (usually the smallest/shortest possible) that can convey meaning; an idea, behavior, style, or usage that spreads from person to person within a culture Ken, any and all assistance with the healing process of my leg musculature will be great. With or without such help, my humble abode with my fabulous 6'5 " futon couch ... views of morning sunshine coming through eucalyptus forest is complimentary with breakfast. By the way, living in San Francisco in an import (Chinese export) warehouse office is kind of like living inside of a large continuously unfolding meme. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen - kenrose2008 Thursday, October 16, 2003 11:37 AM Re: Term standardization Emmanuel, I share your affection for points of transition for the insights they provide into the transformative process. I'm particularly interested in the idea of the evolutionary behavior of memes, although I hesitate to say so lest somone feel threatened of being forced to be a social scientist of some sort. But I don't hesitate for long. Really fascinating stuff, and I think that as the field matures and comes to recognize the folly of trying to operate in the absence of a well defined nomenclature we will continue to see further insights into the transformational dynamics involved in acculturation of these old Chinese ideas in modern minds. Ken PS. I'll be up in your neighborhood in several days, and if you are still having trouble with your leg, I'll be happy to have a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Ken: > The Chinese project at the China > Academy of TCM is on track, at least > the last time I checked in with it, to > produce a bilingual gloss of some > 6,000 terms or more that will wind > up in Microsoft translation engines. > Marco: This is presumably in English and not in Spanish and or Swedish:-) How close is this project with Wiseman and Feng? In the since will it be very different or is Wiseman very much on track? I like the language reasoning although I do not Speak Chinese maybe one day will understand a bit nothing like J in Bejing and you and others, but part of the fun is the process of learning... Anyway the fact is that everything is premature in Guatemala in terms of real knowing and transmission of Chinese medicine-TEAM. More about that in another letter... > It does not cramp or squeeze the subject > or anyone or anything in it into anything > at all to have a simple standardized > list of terms showing Chinese originals > and English equivalents. It has just > the opposite effect. Sorry if that seems > counter-intuitive to anyone. Marco: I been remunerating on these things and think that those of us whom speak Spanish to one degree another need to do something soon so the Anglophones could come and visit us with more ease and fluides:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Jason Robertson pointed out to me one day over tea in Beijing a few months ago that many Chinese physicians use the same terms differently and use different terms to refer to the same phenomena. The whole picture is enormously complex. That's one of the reasons why Nigel's work is so noteworthy and useful. Imperfect as any solution to such a highly complicated set of problems must be, it nevertheless provides a baseline against which meanings can be calibrated. >>>>In light of this as well as statements like Dan's we should at least at this point acknowledge that what we are trying to do is again westernize CM, i.e. ignore cognitive aesthetics (PU). Or what Dr Lai used to say everything in CM is flexible. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 I'd say the best and most reliable way is to promote sound individual foundations, i.e., basic terms, basic concepts, basic theories, and basic skills. >>>>I will have to agree with that and add but be flexible alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 If Jason Robertson is in touch with Professor Ma, perhaps he could give us an update ... or at least the expression on Professor Ma's face. In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen - kenrose2008 Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:32 AM Re: Term standardization Marco, You've raised several questions, and I'm not sure I can address them all adequately. But I'll try and respond to these about the term standardization project, as it will help you and others get a better idea of how complex the situation is. Around the end of last year some time, I met and had the chance to interview Ma Kan Wen over the course of a couple of days. Ma was the fellow who coined the term " Traditional " back in the 50s when the committee in the PRC that was working to compile and redact traditional medical materials was fist given its marching orders to make the work presentable to the overseas, i.e., non-Chinese, i.e., English speaking world. Ma is an advisor of sorts to the term standardization project in the Chinese Academy of TCM. His opinion of those efforts at that time was that the Chinese crew working on the term standardization effort had not yet completed their Chinese language set of terms. That is to say that the Chinese scholars and doctors working on the list had not yet finalised an adequate list of what constitutes the basic terminology of the subject. Ma placed great importance on this fact, arguing that until such an original list were finalised, the work of translating it into English and other non-Chinese languages was futile. Jason Robertson pointed out to me one day over tea in Beijing a few months ago that many Chinese physicians use the same terms differently and use different terms to refer to the same phenomena. The whole picture is enormously complex. That's one of the reasons why Nigel's work is so noteworthy and useful. Imperfect as any solution to such a highly complicated set of problems must be, it nevertheless provides a baseline against which meanings can be calibrated. Nigel has been in Beijing, I've taken part in meetings with him and the leaders of the project. It is not possible for me to say how much of an impact on their final product Nigel's work will have. We shall see. I understand that Dan Bensky and Craig Mitchell will soon be embarking on a PhD program at the Academy. Perhaps they'll be able to keep us abreast of the latest developments there. If they can spare the time, it would also be interesting to compare what their program there consists of with what the new doctoral programs in the States look like. In another post you asked how various problems and pitfalls associated with the narrowing of the view of the subject can be avoided. I'd say the best and most reliable way is to promote sound individual foundations, i.e., basic terms, basic concepts, basic theories, and basic skills. All of my teachers in all traditional Chinese disciplines that I've studied, including taiji, medicine, calligraphy, language, and poetry all stress the overriding importance of the foundation, of the roots of the subject. I'd say that the greatest source of vulnerability to the kinds of problems that you're concerned about avoiding is the cultivation of a sound and stable root. If the root be in confusion, nothing will be well governed. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Ken My expression is relatively placid as well despite the fact that all the leaves have fallen off the tree outside my window jdr Jason Robertson, L.Ac. Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi Beijing, Peoples Republic of China home-86-010-8405-0531 cell- 86-010-13520155800 Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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