Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 I think this is a good point, Todd. I think the first thing to do would be to examine how low sexual desire was defined in Chinese medicine before the modern era. On another note, it makes me think about appetite for food or drink. Many people no longer drink or eat when truly thirsty or hungry, but according to impulse or desire stimulated by watching television or going to a movie or football game. This in and of itself may be a pathological direction, as would artificial stimulation of sexual desire though advertising. Zhu Dan-xi, in Ge zhi yu lun/Extra Treatises Based on Investigation and Inquiry (Blue Poppy Press) says " see not that which is desired, and the heart will be kept from being upset. " Our commercial culture is based on stimulating just this aspect. On Sunday, October 19, 2003, at 04:57 PM, wrote: > It was pointed out to me that many people may confuse true sexual > desire > with the kind of pleasure seeking associated with watching TV or > drinking > alcohol. A distraction or a source of comfort and reassurance, more > than > real desire. Just because one wants sex does not mean that one is > necessarily satisfying some sexual desire, per se. So it may be that > the > symptom of decreased libido is underreported for several reasons. One > may > be the failure to differentiate between true welling desire and > stimulated > artificial desire. If one has sex to feel secure in a relationship > rather > to satisfy desire, might not this insecurity reflect yang vacuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 , " kenrose2008 " wrote: > A truly fascinating question. > > What is desire? > > Can anyone out there tell us > what the Chinese meant by desire? > > I have been wrestling with this > one character for several years > now, and I will really appreciate > any insight that anyone has to offer > on this subject. > > What is desire? Ken: Please post your notes so far and the etymology of the character. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 , " " wrote: Flaws also said, and I agree, that: > 3. thus tongue and pulse are not reliable indicators of cold >>> : This baffles me. Did I miss some paradigm shift? When did #3 happen? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 , " " wrote: > I wouldn't mind hearing some process and details of your Yang enhancing for > the asthma case. Perhaps simply the herbs. As I say, I rarely " go there " and would be > interested how you approached this case. > doug basically a variation of jin gui shen qi wan plus san zi yang xin tang plus bu gu zhi, yin yang huo, but also huang qin and sang bai pi for phlegm heat. Pt. reduced inhaler use on the first day of a 100 g decoction. interestingly, despite using fu zi and rou gui, the phlegm turned white from yellow (a sign that initially obscured the yang xu dx). to answer Jim. tongues are often dusky or red, thickly coated, even in yang xu, while pulses are often fast and slippery in the same, reflective of dampheat. This obscures the classic pale body, white coat, slow pulse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 , " " wrote: > to answer Jim. while pulses are often fast and slippery in the same, reflective of dampheat. This obscures the classic pale body, white coat, slow pulse. : Not to quibble, but if you examine pulses according to the Nan jing or Wang shu he classical methods, you should find both dampheat as well as a slow or thready movement at a different positions and/or depths, when both coexist in the same patient. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 In a message dated 10/19/03 11:36:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jramholz writes: : > > Not to quibble, but if you examine pulses according to the Nan jing > or Wang shu he classical methods, you should find both dampheat as > well as a slow or thready movement at a different positions and/or > depths, when both coexist in the same patient. > > > Jim Ramholz > Jim - I must concur. I would include the Nei Jing and Jin Gui Yao Lue as sources that demonstrate complex pattern identification through the pulse and the tongue. If one doesn't connect to the methods in those sources, then channel and abdominal palpation will reveal the evidence. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 I'm curious as to why BF did not include cold hands along with cold feet as a defining symptom of kd yang xu. Is the implication that cold hands in and of itself is more of a si ni san qi constraint sign or is he saying that cold feet is quintessentially a manifestation of kd yang xu and that cold hands sometimes accompanies and sometimes doesn't? Yehuda On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:57:05 -0700 < writes: > When Bob Flaws spoke at PCOM last Sunday, he said the four defining > symptoms of kidney yang xu most commonly seen in his patients are > > low back and/or knee pain > decreased libido > nocturia > cold feet > > If one has three of these and one of the three is decreased libido, > then > one has kidney yang xu. The question was raised to me as to what > constituted " decreased libido " . > > It was pointed out to me that many people may confuse true sexual > desire > with the kind of pleasure seeking associated with watching TV or > drinking > alcohol. A distraction or a source of comfort and reassurance, more > than > real desire. Just because one wants sex does not mean that one is > necessarily satisfying some sexual desire, per se. So it may be > that the > symptom of decreased libido is underreported for several reasons. > One may > be the failure to differentiate between true welling desire and > stimulated > artificial desire. If one has sex to feel secure in a relationship > rather > to satisfy desire, might not this insecurity reflect yang vacuity. > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre > minds " -- > Albert Einstein > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 , " " > > to answer Jim. tongues are often dusky or red, thickly coated, even in yang xu, DO others find red tongues with a thick coat `often' in yang xu (and a fast pulse)??... where is this from, is this your experience, is this what Bob says, is this common in Chinese literature? All my Chinese teachers said the tongue was the most reliable indicator for temperature? I am very curious about your take on this, for unlike you, I very rarely dx yang xu. IF I see a red tongue thick coat and fast pulse I dx heat ... Even in a hypothetical situation where there is D-H with an underlying yang xu.. If the d-h is manifesting so strongly to influence the tongue and pulse as such, I personally would not think of giving yang tonics until I clear away the excess.. do you do both at once... would like to hear more on your ideas... i.e. how do you get to the yang xu, when they present with heat? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 , " " wrote: > basically a variation of jin gui shen qi wan plus san zi yang xin tang plus bu gu zhi, yin yang huo, but also huang qin and sang bai pi for phlegm heat. Pt. reduced inhaler use on the first day of a 100 g decoction. interestingly, despite using fu zi and rou gui, the phlegm turned white from yellow (a sign that initially obscured the yang xu dx). : I think you comments about yang xu aspects of problems are very interesting and apropos considering it is a Gui Wei (water/ram) year and the season is Han Lu (Cold Dew) in a Ren Xu (water/dog). So, if yang xu is an issue due to chronic character of their disorder or their age, yang xu should become an additional issue because of the year/season/month combination. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 ---A number of problems including astham are possibly rooted in yang xu which may be left untreated. >>>>>Much of this discusion is rooted in disease vs pattern dx. Also much heat (damp heat, congested/depressive, ect.) can be rooted in yang-def. It is often importent in such patients to treat the yang as well as heat. If one just clears heat this can lead to increased heat. Sometimes only treating the rood yang-def or cold takes care of the heat. I think this is a very common clinical mistake. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Alon, And what are your criteria for the yang xu dx.? Does the nocteria, low back and knees and low libido work for you or do you have other signs and symptoms? doug , " alonmarcus2003 " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > ---A number of problems including astham are possibly rooted in yang > xu which > may be left untreated. > >>>>>Much of this discusion is rooted in disease vs pattern dx. Also > much heat (damp heat, congested/depressive, ect.) can be rooted in > yang-def. It is often importent in such patients to treat the yang > as well as heat. If one just clears heat this can lead to increased > heat. Sometimes only treating the rood yang-def or cold takes care > of the heat. I think this is a very common clinical mistake. > alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 , " " <@h...> wrote: > , " " > > > > to answer Jim. tongues are often dusky or red, thickly coated, > even in yang xu, > > DO others find red tongues with a thick coat `often' in yang xu (and > a fast pulse)??... where is this from, is this your experience, > is this what Bob says, is this common in Chinese literature? All my > Chinese teachers said the tongue was the most reliable indicator for > temperature? I mentioned the many. many AIDs patients with red tongues who responded to moxa and yang tonics as well as my asthma patient, however this is not my general experience. Flaws taught this. However I do disagree with your chinese teachers. I do believe heat trumps cold on the tongue and if both are present, the tongue will often be red and yellow, not pale and white. that diagnostic is my experience. However I usually see it in qi xu with a tongue that is also enlarged and wet. However this tongue could also reflect yang xu. As for the literature, flaws makes it very clear that this is his take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 , " alonmarcus2003 " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > ---A number of problems including astham are possibly rooted in yang > xu which > may be left untreated. > >>>>>Much of this discusion is rooted in disease vs pattern dx. Also > much heat (damp heat, congested/depressive, ect.) can be rooted in > yang-def. It is often importent in such patients to treat the yang > as well as heat. If one just clears heat this can lead to increased > heat. Sometimes only treating the rood yang-def or cold takes care > of the heat. I think this is a very common clinical mistake. > alon Alon, Todd ( & others), I understand that sometimes one may need to tonify yang in order to clear heat, but how common is this? Actually I have never needed to do this and I would only try this unless other more obvious things do not work... I am curious when you think that this is important? How often do you do this? What symptoms are needed, and specifically with patterns of constrained heat or damp-heat why would one try yang tonics? It seems that theoretical discussions are void of this concept.. and major formulas and herb indications do not mention this (at least to my knowledge)... Therefore I can only conclude that it is a very fringe idea that I label as 'if all else fails' - Why is this a 'common' clinical mistake, please elaborate... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 , " " wrote: > > I mentioned the many. many AIDs patients with red tongues who responded > to moxa and yang tonics as well as my asthma patient, Well this makes sense.. many aids patients present with yin xu heat and are also yang xu - therefore respond to mixed tx... Or are you saying that you giving warming yang tonic formulas without heat clearing or yin supplementing to these type of patients…?but, I am more curious about d-h and constrained heat patterns concurrent with yang xu... Are you saying this is common? The asthma patient seems to have p-h in the lung with a kindey yang xu... not hard to rationalize, I also feel moxa can be equally good for hot or cold conditions and do not find this that meaningful. > general experience. Flaws taught this. What did he teach.. were you referring to the statement `tongues are often dusky or red, thickly coated, even in yang xu' Again I say, what is often? And this is his own idea? , However I do disagree with your > chinese teachers. I do believe heat trumps cold on the tongue and if both are > present, the tongue will often be red and yellow, not pale and white. This is what I am curious about.. These mixed hot and cold patterns. Let's say we see someone who has a red tongue thick coat and fast pulse... How do you dx the yang xu component? with the 4 criteria that bob says? How often do you find that these people actually have a sensation of cold? I find it very rarely. If they do have cold it is usually cold hands and feet, that usually clear up by moving out the constrained qi/ heat. I very rarely dx mixed heat and cold patterns, but want to learn more… Curious to me, is that these patterns (or treatment ideas) are not mentioned in the theory textbooks (to my knowledge), or that the main formulas that are studied do not reflect this idea... Mixed hot and cold patterns seem to be more often dx from westerners that easterners, would you agree…? Is this due to our patients or our viewpoint? I seem to not see that much mention of this is Chinese texts… I wonder why this is? Why are there not more rx's for these type patterns, or more discussion is the theory… where is the formula for d-h with yang tonics? Also, I have always felt that one of the few Rxs that actually mention a mixed hot-cold condition, ban xia xie xin tang, to be somewhat unclear. Meaning what are we really talking about with the cold… Maybe someone could point me a direction that elaborates on these concepts...? > As for the literature, flaws makes it very clear that this is his take. I do find this peculiar and somewhat suspect. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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