What are Meridians?

October 21, 2003

What are Meridians/Channels?

This has huge practical implications especially for those using

acupuncture/herbal medicine on non-humans – we have based most of our field

(veterinary acupuncture and herbal medicine) on the early western texts that

emphasised an “energetics” aspect. We have just adopted and transposed the

human literature out there. I can see the Chinese have a different

conceptual model of health/disease. But do we all agree on the basic

structures involved? Is there agreement on the nature of meridians?

Jimmy

---------

Jimmy Symmonds BSc, BVSc, MRCVS

Holistic Animal Care Centre

125 Magdalen Road

Oxford

OX4 1RQ

UK

Tel: +44 (0)1865 453570

Fax: +44 (0)1865 423183

Email: jimmy

Web: www.HolisticAnimalCare.co.uk

October 21, 2003

Ken, these basic questions are the hardest of all of course. I have a few

thoughts on the " qi " and " acupuncture point " as well as one possible idea of

what a meridian is from Dr. Wang Ju Yi here in Beijing.

What is qi?

Is formless but exists (wu xing er cun zai). This means " formless " to the naked

eye in the context of ancient China where electron microscopes didn't exist. Qi

has function (gong neng).

What is an acupuncture point?

A point is not fixed or even measurable but must be palpated. In the Nei Jing,

a character that is often used in modern Chinese to mean 'holiday' (jie-2) was

used to describe 'points'. The term also has a meaning of node or division.

Other classical sources use a term meaning 'division' or 'crack' in modern

Chinese (xi-4). 'Xi' might mean the divisions or openings in bones, between

vessels, next to lymph nodes, or between muscles where acupuncture points lie.

What is a meridian?

Even harder question, I think. Dr. Wang defines meridians as parts of an

overarching system that unifies nerves, blood vessels, interstitial fluid, lymph

vessels and muscle groups. The meridians are defined by their functional

natures of which there are six. Fundamentally, each is associated with one of

the six qi of the environment. The meridian system must also include the

concept of collateral (luo)so that it's web-like nature (has no weaver?) can be

appreciated. As we all know, there's a lot more that can be said but this may

be a starting point. I hope that others will add ideas.

respectfully,

Jason Robertson

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

The New with improved product search

October 22, 2003

Jason,

I know that it's a different character, but as you are speaking of

web-like collaterals, I'm wondering if there could be a connection

between luo and lou as in the herb gua lou, which looks like a mesh

network? What do you think? Connection or coincidence?

Yehuda

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October 22, 2003

Yehuda wrote:

I know that it's a different character, but as you are speaking of web-like

collaterals, I'm wondering if there could be a connection between luo and lou as

in the herb gua lou, which looks like a mesh network. What do you think?

Connection or coincidence?

Yehuda:

I seems to me to be a coincidence that the character lou-2 (meaning a type of

vine-like artemesia)sounds like the character luo-4 (meaning collateral).

Nevertheless, the web-like appearance of Gua Lou Pi is at least a helpful

pneumonic for remembering its phlegm transforming functions. On a similar note

though, the herb Ju-2 Luo-4 does include the character translated as

'collateral' and does have an ability to rectify qi in the collaterals. In this

cass, I might be tempted to think that the name itself in Chinese implies its

nature.

Many of you have probably read the interesting links made in Jeremy Narby's book

" The Cosmic Serpent " about the shapes of plants as indicators of their function-

really great insights.

respectfully

Jason Robertson

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

The New with improved product search

October 22, 2003

At 11:04 AM +0100 10/21/03, Jimmy Symmonds wrote:

>This has huge practical implications especially for those using

>acupuncture/herbal medicine on non-humans – we have based most of our field

>(veterinary acupuncture and herbal medicine) on the early western texts that

>emphasised an “energetics” aspect. We have just adopted and transposed the

>human literature out there. I can see the Chinese have a different

>conceptual model of health/disease. But do we all agree on the basic

>structures involved? Is there agreement on the nature of meridians?

--

Jimmy,

It would be surprising if we were all to agree on anything.

Nevertheless, one thing that most recent translators seem to agree on

is that meridian is not the best translation of jing luo. For example:

Wiseman: channels (jing) and network vessels (luo).

Unschuld: conduits (jing) and network vessels (luo).

AFAIK, there is general agreement that the jing luo are structures

through which qi and blood flow, and that they connect to, and are

communication links between, the organs and tissues of the body.

I'm assuming that the above description is not controversial.

Various sources use different terminology, including the terms

meridian, and energy, and describe their functions in different ways

(eg compare Birch, Requena, & Worseley), but then we probably start

losing agreement on the particulars.

Rory

--

October 22, 2003

Jason,

On a similar note though, the herb Ju-2 Luo-4 does include the

character translated as 'collateral' and does have an ability to

rectify qi in the collaterals. In this cass, I might be tempted to

think that the name itself in Chinese implies its nature.

>

> Many of you have probably read the interesting links made in

Jeremy Narby's book " The Cosmic Serpent " about the shapes of plants

as indicators of their function- really great insights.

> respectfully

> Jason Robertson

>

Thanks for your linguistic insights, both

here and in the other post in response to

the questions I raised. I'm gonna think

about those others and get back to it

after a few days perhaps.

Wouldn't you say that the names themselves

in Chinese are more or less loaded with

implications as to the nature, character,

function, size, shape and lots of other

qualities and aspects of Chinese medical

ideas, substances, etc.?

Obviously, that's a rhetorical question

and obviously the next point in the

rhetoric is something about how and why

this fundamental layer of the subject

is so missing in so much of the educational

experiences of acupuncturists and herbalists

trained exclusively in English (or other) language

materials that deny, ignore, or downplay the

importance of such implications.

I've tried many, many times to imagine

the contents of discussions that led

early curriculum designers to the conclusion

that one need not tell students about

this. And I remained stumped.

What do you think?

A quick note about shape and function.

There's a brilliant book by D'arcy Thompson

called something like On Growth and Form.

It's been many years since I read it.

But I remember it was one of the things

that opened my eyes to the relationship

between shape and function and why

things grow into the forms they possess.

I think this is critically important

information for people engaged in

diagnosis in Chinese medicine. When

we first start to diagnose, we look

at the patient and the first thing

we see is a shape, a form, moving

through the doorway.

Function and dysfunction are embodied

in form.

The key body of material I've encountered

to illuminate this embodiment is the

work of Buckminster Fuller. Throughout

his life and work, Bucky was mapping

the territory that connects form and

function. Synergetics pretty much

contains the details of this terrain.

And I just got my hands on a copy of

Tony D'amasio's new book, Looking for

Spinoza, in which he defines and explores

the territory of feeling and emotion

and adds another layer to his developing

conception of the link between the formal

objects that we carry in our skulls

and the functional objects that we

create with our minds.

Form, function, and feeling.

Which leads me back to my rhetoric about

language. I would love to read your

take on the role language plays in

coming to know the clinical implications

of Chinese medical theories, strategies

and tactics.

If that's too tall an order or you

fear that people on this list will

organize against you if you take up

the subject, tough. Just give it

some thought and answer anyway.

See ya,

Ken

October 22, 2003

And undoubtedly this served the ancient Chinese from the era from Shen

Nong onwards in discovering the Chinese materia medica.

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 06:14 AM, Jason Robertson wrote:

>

> Many of you have probably read the interesting links made in Jeremy

> Narby's book " The Cosmic Serpent " about the shapes of plants as

> indicators of their function- really great insights.

> respectfully

> Jason Robertson

October 22, 2003

Meridians, Channels, Conduits. For those of us in practice we need to be

able to take cutting edge scholarship and research and see how it informs

our practive. Some of these concepts are so fundamental that they have the

potential to divide the veterinary acupuncture community. How do you all

conceptualise jingluo?

In Southern Africa is a people known as the Ostrich People as most of the

tribe have ostrich-like " two-toed " feet. Where and how would you map out

their jingluo and acupuncture points?

Thank you for your input.

Jimmy

Jimmy Symmonds BSc BVSc MRCVS

Holistic Animal Care Centre

125 Magdalen Road

Oxford

OX4 1RQ

UK

Tel: +44 (0) 1865 453570

Fax: +44 (0) 1865 423183

Mobile: +44 (0) 7884 438583

October 23, 2003

Ken Wrote:

Function and dysfunction are embodied

in form.

Form, function, and feeling.

Which leads me back to my rhetoric about

language. I would love to read your

take on the role language plays in

coming to know the clinical implications

of Chinese medical theories, strategies

and tactics.

Ken,

A huge question! It's more easy for me to get specific and tackle a particular

term that relates to our discussion of meridians/collaterals:

One term that is used with a variety of meanings is " mai-4 " . This is the term

often translated as " vessel " - as in blood vessel. It is also the same term that

means pulse, pathway of qi and is actually the term used for the Du and Ren

" channels " (Ren Mai, Du Mai). So, it is quite possible that this term is one of

the more misunderstood by non-Chinese speakers. In fact, because of the various

meanings of this term, it has also been misunderstood by many Chinese

practitioners/writers throughout the centuries.

I'm coming to a point here.

In many of the most ancient text, there are discussions about " feeling the

vessels " (as we hear it in English) and many Chinese traditions took this idea

to mean " feeling the blood vessels- as in the radial pulse). Another possible

meaning of those ancient texts, given that " mai " can mean all of these different

things, is that a person should " feel the meridians " .

So, in response to the original questions posted by Jimmy, in order to figure

out meridians on an ostrich or an 'ostrich person', one would palpate the body.

Points are not measurable or fixed any more than hairlines are fixed (much to my

chagrin).

A meridian is therefore not exactly a structure in my opinion by but instead a

system that unifies groups of nerves, blood vessels, lymph and interstitial

fluid. Ken used the word pattern- a good word in that it conveys the idea that

there are patterns in the body of linkage.

By the way, Rory posted yesterday a question about what the best English term

might be for Jing-luo. As you can see, I vote for 'meridian' given the

double-meaning of the meridians around the planet- the idea of

microcosm-macrocosm

Channel sounds too much like cable TV. In the end, there is no perfect English

word for a concept that never existed before. We should all look at the Chinese

character and ask questions.

thanks to anyone who read this far

respectfully

Jason Robertson

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

The New with improved product search

October 23, 2003

At 1:48 AM -0700 10/23/03, Jason Robertson wrote:

>By the way, Rory posted yesterday a question about what the best

>English term might be for Jing-luo. As you can see, I vote for

>'meridian' given the double-meaning of the meridians around the

>planet- the idea of microcosm-macrocosm

>Channel sounds too much like cable TV. In the end, there is no

>perfect English word for a concept that never existed before. We

>should all look at the Chinese character and ask questions.

--

Jason,

Thanks for your comments. I also like 'meridian' -- I find it a

pleasing word to use. However, I was pointing out that neither

Unschuld nor Wiseman used that term, in answer to Jimmy's question,

which had to do with whether there was agreement about these

structures.

Unschuld argues against 'meridian' as a translation on the grounds

that the term was used in the Su Wen as part of an effort to depict

the bodies structures as part of a system political and social

infrastructure, where you have palaces, storage facilities,

communications links, roads, sources for water, etc etc. He thinks we

should use that metaphor in choosing his English terms, and

'meridian' doesn't fit the metaphor as well as 'conduit'. So, your

comment about cable TV is interesting -- I think 'channel' may be a

good choice precisely because it fits both modern and ancient

metaphors...

Personally, I prefer to use the mandarin/pinyin for many terms over

English translations. By doing this, we avoid at least one level of

faulty assumptions that can occur when terms are translated

imperfectly. We also avoid the issue of different translations by

different authors, in a field where there is already a well

established English literature that does not use a single standard

terminology. I find this particularly important in my teaching of

pulse diagnosis, where many practitioners, and even authors of books,

use the same terms in English to refer to different terms in Chinese.

A case in point is 'tight', which is used by some to refer to 'jin'

and others to 'xian', and at least one author, both. Referring to the

mandarin/pinyin places the focus on the Chinese term, which is where

it should be. We do this for yin, yang, and qi, and I feel there is a

case for a wider use of this method as a standard, at least amongst

professionals and in the professional literature.

Rory

--

October 23, 2003

Jason and Yehuda -

I have to say that I think it is neither connection nor coincidence. The

word Lou2 (as in Gua Lou) sounds nothing like the word luo4 (as in

network). They are completely different characters that do not look alike

or sound alike. It is like saying the word low sounds like the word loo

because they are both one syllable and start with L.

Marnae

At 06:14 AM 10/22/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>Yehuda wrote:

>

>I know that it's a different character, but as you are speaking of

>web-like collaterals, I'm wondering if there could be a connection between

>luo and lou as in the herb gua lou, which looks like a mesh network.

>What do you think? Connection or coincidence?

>

>Yehuda:

>

>I seems to me to be a coincidence that the character lou-2 (meaning a type

>of vine-like artemesia)sounds like the character luo-4 (meaning

>collateral). Nevertheless, the web-like appearance of Gua Lou Pi is at

>least a helpful pneumonic for remembering its phlegm transforming

>functions. On a similar note though, the herb Ju-2 Luo-4 does include the

>character translated as 'collateral' and does have an ability to rectify

>qi in the collaterals. In this cass, I might be tempted to think that the

>name itself in Chinese implies its nature.

>

>Many of you have probably read the interesting links made in Jeremy

>Narby's book " The Cosmic Serpent " about the shapes of plants as indicators

>of their function- really great insights.

>respectfully

>Jason Robertson

>

>Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

>Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

>

>Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

>

>home-86-010-8405-0531

>cell- 86-010-13520155800

>

>The New with improved product search

>

October 23, 2003

Aren't most loos low?

On Thursday, October 23, 2003, at 11:03 AM, Marnae Ergil wrote:

> It is like saying the word low sounds like the word loo

> because they are both one syllable and start with L.

>

> Marnae

October 24, 2003

Jason,

I really love this post of yours for so many reasons. However, it also seems to

me that you've most perfectly revealed the real intent (conscious or

unconscious) behind Ken's posts of recent times ... or at all times. While it

seems beautifully implicit in your entire post, your second to last sentence

says it most completely ... and I quote: " In the end, there is no perfect

English word for a concept that never existed before. " I love this on so my

levels but I will resist the temptation to speak to anything except one thing.

Ken wants us to " define our terms " . Of course, we can't render into English

perfectly a concept that has never existed in English. The two cultures,

languages and sciences of West and East have proceeded so far and for so long in

isolation of each other, that much of one can not be fully articulated in the

other. Chinese people liberally use English terms for what can only be

articulated in English. Slowly, it must then occur to all who stub their mental

toes on this difficulty that the only way to " read " Chinese is not to translate

it into English ... but rather to " read Chinese " . So Ken's little trick

(consciously or unconsciously executed) is for us to define in English what can

not be defined in English. So in the end we can only define our terms and

intentions in Chinese characters.

And also, of course, the only way to fulfill Bob Flaw's mandate to Stop Ken From

Writing Again is for all of us to start posting in Chinese characters. Then, of

course, it won't matter what Western-equivalent academic degree anyone has.

We'll all be addressing Chinese medical topics in Chinese ... and " what is

Chinese medicine " will be revealed in its own language.