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Andreas Cleyer

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All,

 

Just after I posted my last post

I opened up the little book called

Approaches to Traditional Chinese

Medical Literature, edited by

Paul Unschuld.

 

Great book for any who are concerned

about the subject.

 

In the introductory remarks, Paul

makes mention of the 1682 translation

by Andreas Cleyer of a Ming treatise

on pulse diagnosis that contains

the following statement in which

he explains his approach to the

translation:

 

" Still, I will not at all attempt, hereafter

to evaluate their principles on the basis

of our own principles; rather I shall orient

myself on the Chinese themselves. "

 

This spirit seems to have been eradictaed

by the ensuing three centuries of intellectual

development among Western writers on Chinese

medicine to a great and disturbing extent.

 

Paul discusses the attendant difficulties and

associated issues, and I highly recommend

that anyone interested in this topic take

a look. He does say that Cleyer's motto

is still worth considering today.

 

And indeed it is.

 

Ken

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A very important issue, Ken.

 

I remember something that Marta Hansen, who is working on a Wen Bing

historical text, said about creating 'a virtual Chinese Qing dynasty

mindset'. In other words, trying as much as possible to inhabit the

mind-space of the physicians of that time, and express that in language.

 

It seems anthropological writers such as Marta, Francesca Brey, Donald

Harper and Elisabeth Hsu seem to be more interested in this than actual

practitioners of Chinese medicine.

 

 

> " Still, I will not at all attempt, hereafter

> to evaluate their principles on the basis

> of our own principles; rather I shall orient

> myself on the Chinese themselves. "

 

 

>

> This spirit seems to have been eradictaed

> by the ensuing three centuries of intellectual

> development among Western writers on Chinese

> medicine to a great and disturbing extent

 

Can't we also consider, Ken, that some modern Chinese writers and

committees have also committed this faux-pas?

 

 

 

 

 

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Ken, I appreciate your persistence in these matters.

 

Pat

----------

Hence my dogged persistence at sussing

out who is who and what is what in terms

of ideas, documents, etc. that issue from

that zone.

 

Believe me, I've been up to my eyeballs in

this whole thing for some time now.

 

It's very, very complicated.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

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In Judaism, we say that sometimes one has to challenge heaven, with

what is called " divine chutzpah " .

 

I'd say Ken has divine chutzpah.

 

You've got my vote, Ken.

 

 

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 02:34 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

> To Ken and the list,

>

> I actually laid away for awhile last night wanting to say to the CHA

> list in general how important I find Ken's questions. If you think

> about it, Ken is incredibly impertinent in that he is attempting to

> influence " teachers " regarding their attunement to CM. There are a

> lot of people who teach CM on this list. I personally value this

> impertinence. It's an exercise in lineage. Everyone must look at what

> and who they've been studying to see that their sails are trimmed ...

> or even what their sails look like.

>

> Thanks for allowing my impertinence to point this out.

>

> Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

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Ken, I'm not sure I understand this. Can you expand on it a little?

doug

______________

's post the other day testified to

> the prevalence of an attitude that

> sees stares blindly inside the clinic

> for the answers to all clinical questions.

>

> Real patients spend very little time

> in the clinic. If you want to really

> influence the way people lives their

> lives, you have to go out and meet

> them where they live, i.e., in their

> own realities, in their minds as

> well as in their bodies.

> _____________

> Ken

>

>

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