Exquisite theory - paradigmatic bases in the concept of placebo

[Guest guest]

>Stephen Morrissey wrote:

 

>Marian, I can understand your confusion with that sentence. And this

may not clear it up but...

 

Actually, it did clear it up!

 

> It is my perception that the unconscious mind controls physiology in

many ways, which in some cases becomes

dysfunctional to the point of symptoms, including, as examples,

allergies, headache, ulcer, or chronic low back ache, etc. If one or

more of these symptomatic manifestations of unconscious

psychological/emotional issues (i.e. rage/fear) are alleviated by taking

a medicinal substance or placebo, has the substance/placebo actually

removed the underlying rage/fear that triggered the symptom or did it

just cause a re-direction of the physical/physiological manifestation of

the unconscious rage/fear toward a different symptomatic outlet?

 

I do observe this in some patients: the flea-like behavior of their

conditions--as soon as we've solved one problem another crops up. This

also happens with trigger point massage therapy.

 

>One observation is that unconscious responses to common circumstances

that

we all have programmed into our psyches cause the unconscious mind to

respond by altering our normal physiologically. In many cases our

unconscious finds it most convenient to mess with the weaker links in

our physiology. Or, it could be that the demonstrated changes in

microcirculation triggered by conscious and unconscious rage and fear

naturally trigger symptoms in locations that are the most susceptible.

Either way, the relief of symptoms in that location don't necessarily

change the underlying psychological/emotional state that initially

caused the symptom.

 

So how is the root, the unconscious psychological issues, more deeply

addressed? psychotherapy?

 

>In terms of placebo, isn't its effect more pronounced in certain types

of conditions?

 

Is there research on this question? I often hear the idea that

'functional' problems (like the ones you mention above) often have more

of an 'emotional overlay' than structural ones. They're also said to be

more amenable to subtle therapies, like acup. (like placebo?)

 

>It is just a theory, but I believe it plausible that

placebo is more effective in relieving symptoms that are more

susceptible to the changes triggered by unconscious

psychological/emotional states, even if relieving these conditions does

not require affecting the basic nature of the unconscious, only its

relationship to the symptom.

 

By what mechanism might placebo change the relationship to the symptom?

Couldn't the psychological states sometimes be conscious?

 

>Since unconscious states and their

sensitivity or susceptibility to triggering mechanisms are somewhat

different for all of us, some would be naturally more responsive to

placebo than others. Could that same sensitivity and susceptibility to

unconscious triggers cause or correlate with being more responsive to

herbs and acupuncture?

 

Do you observe or think you observe this correlation? Are you implying

that herbs and acup effects are part/all placebo effect? Is there

another common mechanism that would account for the correlation? Can you

give examples of unconscious triggers? Are you saying that it is those

specially responsive, sensitive people who respond to EVERYTHING (acup,

placebo) more?

 

I think there is a tapestry of psychol, social, genetic, spiritual,

environmental, chemical . . . factors that contribute to the causation

of conditions. Perhaps when the imbalance is relatively young

(functional?) it's just more amenable to the 'intention to heal' on the

part of the patient. When one goes for help and the practitioner is able

to promote that intention, healing happens. When disharmonies become

stuck, over time becoming more habitual, often reflected in the

structure, it's harder to affect. Perhaps 'placebo' as we're using it

here, always promotes healing but it's not enough in many cases, whether

psychological or physical factors predominate. I think acup and herbs,

the way I use them, as mostly subtle influences (ok, not da ji, gan sui

.. . . ) and that's why it may seem to be only placebo. Sometimes the

effect of acup/herbs is not enough to overshadow the placebo effect

that's also operating.

 

Regards,

Marian

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[Guest guest]

Marian,

 

So how is the root, the unconscious psychological issues, more

deeply

addressed? psychotherapy?

 

I'd love to know. One idea that seems to have worked for many people is

that just recognizing the causal relationship between psyche and symptom

can interrupt that causal chain. Yet, I know that some people have

gotten physically worse from excessively focusing on their psychological

issues in therapy. Honestly, I believe somehow forgiveness is involved

in a lot of chronic internalized rage. And, I believe that it is

important to forgive oneself as much as others that may have " wronged "

us in the past. Not easy.

 

 

By what mechanism might placebo change the relationship to the

symptom?

 

I could only speculate on that, but it does seem to change the target of

the unconscious symptom manifestations, at least for some.

 

 

Couldn't the psychological states sometimes be conscious?

 

Yes, where would you really define the line between the two. Doesn't

seem to be drawn in the sand, or is it?

 

Best,

Stephen

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Stephen and Marian,

 

I, for one, greatly appreciate the thread which you have carried on regarding

placebo. Especially when Marian was able to filter out what you meant by root,

Stephen. Psychoanalysis, meditation, prayer, forgiveness or simple affirmation

may all play a role in dealing developmentally with deep injury. Thank you for

carrying out this dialog. It seems to interface somewhat with Todd's query on

heart without flesh and many of the responses, especially Marnae's.

 

In gratitude,

Emmanuel Segmen

 

RE: Exquisite theory - paradigmatic bases in the concept of

placebo

 

 

Marian,

 

So how is the root, the unconscious psychological issues, more deeply

addressed? psychotherapy?

 

I'd love to know. One idea that seems to have worked for many people is that

just recognizing the causal relationship between psyche and symptom can

interrupt that causal chain. Yet, I know that some people have

gotten physically worse from excessively focusing on their psychological

issues in therapy. Honestly, I believe somehow forgiveness is involved in a lot

of chronic internalized rage. And, I believe that it is

important to forgive oneself as much as others that may have " wronged " us in

the past. Not easy.

 

By what mechanism might placebo change the relationship to the symptom?

 

I could only speculate on that, but it does seem to change the target of the

unconscious symptom manifestations, at least for some.

 

Couldn't the psychological states sometimes be conscious?

 

Yes, where would you really define the line between the two. Doesn't seem to

be drawn in the sand, or is it?

 

Best,

Stephen

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yet, I know that some people have

gotten physically worse from excessively focusing on their psychological

issues in therapy.

>>>Just some?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Stephen Morrissey "

wrote:

> Couldn't the psychological states sometimes be conscious?

>

> Yes, where would you really define the line between the two.

Doesn't seem to be drawn in the sand, or is it? >>>

 

 

 

Stephen:

 

This line can be drawn in the pulses---if you're using the Nan Jing

Qi/Blood/Organ system of depths and dividing those into three again,

for a total of 9. Both the Dong Han and Shen/Hammer pulses systems

use this. The qi/Qi depth is conscious emotion, qi/Blood depth is

subconscious, and qi/Organ depth is unconscious emotion. If an

emotion is sinking or floating tells you whether it is internalizing

or externalizing. Seeing how it relates to other positions tells you

how simple emotions become more complex patterns. These are the

basics.

 

These are 20th century clinical findings, so you probably won't find

them in the classics. It's interesting to me because the Koreans

discovered and applied 9 depths independently from the Shen/Hammer

system; the emotional interpretation and application is Korean. I've

never heard anyone else speak of it or teach it; and didn't realize

Shen/Hammer also used a version of 9-depths until a recent

discussion with Will Morris. After 9-depths, pulses start to get

interesting!

 

 

Jim Ramholz