Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Craig Mitchell got a big laugh at his CHA presentation when he talked about= how when he started learning Chinese he thought it would make everything cleare= r and he would know exactly what was being said. doug But > every time I do read and translate Medical Chinese I usually walk > away with some clarification or simplified way of thinking, or a more > expanded way of viewing something which sometimes makes things more > elusive than I once thought…> - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 , " " wrote: > Craig Mitchell got a big laugh at his CHA presentation when he talked about= > how > when he started learning Chinese he thought it would make everything clearer I have found this to be the typical position of clinicians who read chinese at a very high level such as Barbara Kirshenbaum, Craig and Dan Bensky. It seems the less one reads, the more one is tempted to read into things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 I know what he's talking about. However, this doesn't detract from even simple discernment of how characters are designed and what they represent. On Oct 27, 2003, at 7:01 AM, wrote: > Craig Mitchell got a big laugh at his CHA presentation when he talked > about= > how > when he started learning Chinese he thought it would make everything > cleare= > r > and he would know exactly what was being said. > doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Todd - While I believe Craig, Barbara and Dan might all joke in the way that Craig did at the CHA conference, I am fairly certain that all of them would also say that the ability to read Chinese has influenced their practice of CM dramatically and that learning Chinese was an important step in their understanding of Chinese medicine. That's why they have put the time and effort into learning it - beacuse it did in fact make a clinical difference. Did everything become clearer - no not necessarily, but with continued reading and working, things were often clarified or questions came into clearer focus. Marnae At 03:37 PM 10/27/2003 +0000, you wrote: > , " " wrote: > > Craig Mitchell got a big laugh at his CHA presentation when he talked > about= > > how > > when he started learning Chinese he thought it would make everything >clearer > >I have found this to be the typical position of clinicians who read >chinese at a >very high level such as Barbara Kirshenbaum, Craig and Dan Bensky. It seems >the less one reads, the more one is tempted to read into things. > >Todd > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of >professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: - > > While I believe Craig, Barbara and Dan might all joke in the way that Craig > did at the CHA conference, I am fairly certain that all of them would also > say that the ability to read Chinese has influenced their practice of CM > dramatically and that learning Chinese was an important step in their > understanding of Chinese medicine. Marnae I am sure you are right about the importance of learning chinese to each of these folks. I merely meant whether this played out mainly in terms of gaining access to more data, as Barbara has reported here or gaining insight into the previously hidden meaning of things chinese. As I wrote to Nigel Wiseman earlier today: " What is the main value of reading chinese? Is it mainly that one gains access to the entire body of medical literature or is it that one actually understands CM much better or is it both? In other words, does reading a character give one more understanding than reading a wiseman term and knowing its complete definition? It would seem to me that even if I can read the character, my understanding still ultimately comes down to an english worded definition of that character. " Lately, I spend a portion of each day devoted to my chinese studies. I look forward to seeing what it will reveal to me. We recently discussed the issue of libido and what decreased libido really meant for an american patient, especially a female one. Ken mentioned he has been wrestling with this character for a while now. This certainly seemed to be an example to me where understanding the nature of desire in chinese language and culture could be a clue at understanding how to prescribe herbs that were indicated for a lack of this. I was hoping Bob Flaws, who set me down this line of inquiry would contribute, and hopefully you also since you spoke on related issues for CHA. The thread begins with Desire at: http://health./message/20984 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Haven't read the thread on desire. Sorry, I was away on the road without computer access. The Chinese term I translate as libido or sexual desire is xing4 yu4. This is based on the entry for this compound term on page 1318 in Chinese-English Medical Dictionary, Beijing, 1988: " libido, sexuality. " This makes sense to me since I read a literal translation of this compound term as " sexual desire. " While either of these two Chinese words (xing4 or yu4) may have other, deeper, more ambiguous levels of meaning, their use in a contemporary medical context by Chinese medical writers seems relatively unambivalent to me. Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, Cleveland & New York, 1964, defines libido (p. 844) as " the sexual urge or instinct. " The term, " decrease in sexual desire " or " decrease in or lowered libido, " is my translation of xing4 yu4 jian2 tui4. For me, in terms of the diagnostic algorithm I use and teach for recognizing kidney yang vacuity (when mixed with any kind of heat), decrease in or lowering of libido or sexual desire means that the person does not feel like having sex as much as they have in the past. It is a relative judgment based on past sexual desire which the patient themself feels was more their norm. When questioning about this, my experience is that one has to be careful to differentiate between lack of desire to have sex with a particular partner (e.g., husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend) and lack or less of the physical urge to have sex in general. I also distinguish between lowered libido and decreased or absent orgasms (which commonly involve different CM mechanisms). I find that with clear, careful questioning, I get clear, unequivocal responses from patients which work for me in terms of pattern discrimination and, more importantly, treatment planning and treatment outcomes. As a for instance, last weekend in S.F., we had a sample patient who said she had decreased libido, but what it turned out she actually meant was that she didn't orgasm as easily but that she still felt like having sex just as much as always. Because she of an age where kidney yang vacuity may have been a definite though slightly early possibility (38 yrs) and because she was suffering from early menstruation which is often due to a spleen-kidney yang vacuity at that age, careful clarification of this point was extremely important. All the more so because she had polyuria. However, as it turned out, the patterns that she was manifesting were heart-gallbladder qi timidity (i.e., a heart qi and blood vacuity due to a liver-spleen disharmony plus phlegm) complicated by stomach heat and blood stasis. In this case, the polyuria was due to stomach heat and spleen vacuity not upbearing and not to kidney vacuity (although those will probably evolve into kidney vacuity over time). Hope this was what you were wanting from me. If not, we can try again. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " < pemachophel2001> wrote: When questioning about this, my experience is that one has to be > careful to differentiate between lack of desire to have sex with a > particular partner (e.g., husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend) and > lack or less of the physical urge to have sex in general. I also > distinguish between lowered libido and decreased or absent orgasms > (which commonly involve different CM mechanisms). Bob thanks. that is some of what I wanted. Have you considered or seen the reverse scenario wherein a person wants to have sex regularly or even excessively for reasons other than physical desire (security in relationship, self-esteem, addictive behavior). In that case, would you say that one has excessive sexual desire or the reverse? I suggested that such behavior on the part of some patients may mask an actual lack or decline of true physical desire. Am I making an artificial separation here regarding what constitutes desire? for example, did the chinese mean one desired to cuddle or felt the need for physical closeness or that one felt the welling drive for physical climax. I believe many patients who describe themselves as wanting sex as much now as when they were younger may be speaking from a desire rooted in something other than lust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 , " " wrote: > Am I making an artificial separation here regarding what constitutes desire? for example, did the chinese mean one desired to cuddle or felt the need for physical closeness or that one felt the welling drive for physical climax. I believe many patients who describe themselves as wanting sex as much now as when they were younger may be speaking from a desire rooted in something other than lust. >>> : The Chinese idea of an emotion relating to a single organ is a simplified picture, like an alphabet. To understand any one you have to see it in 5-Element context (sorry!). You're asking about " desire " as if it were one thing, but really speaking about mixtures of emotions. So you need to see how it relates to each other organ. For example, there will be several different manifestations in the spleen pulse and it's connection to other positions depending on whether the desire involves an exciting ocassion such as the excitement of a new relationship, an immanent wedding, or just pure lust. These general pulses will be modified again by how reserved, repressed, or guarded the person is about their feelings. While kidney yang is often the driving force for instinctive physical desire, the specific quality of desire and how it involves other emotions has to be looked at in how it interrelates with other organs. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 I think addiction to intimacy for psychological reasons is different from libido in terms of CM pattern discrimination. I've never really thought about this before. Given my patient population in terms of sex, age, and presenting complaints, it is relatively easy and straightforward to determine if their libido has declined or not from a CM point of view. My guess is that what you're talking about has something to do with the coursing and soothing of liver depression due to " unfulfilled desires. " But that is just an initial hit. In men, one way to determine the state of the libido is the presence or absence (relative to earlier times) of " morning wood. " With women, it's a little more difficult, but, as I've said above, my patients don't typically have a problem answering the question of their libido. What I'm talking about is the physical urge to have sex and the resolution of orgasm. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 In men, one way to determine the state of the libido is the presence or absence (relative to earlier times) of " morning wood. " >>>>Is this libido or just function. All men should have erections with dreaming even when libido (as defined in western med)is low.So the question is does libido in CM speaks more of an emotional state or physical state of proper pluming. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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