Statistical inference - invalid research

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

 

>>Rory, you indicated that the intention of research is to

" communicate " with Americans about CM. This may be because you see

the " language " of communication in this country to be the scientific

method. Alon says he just wants to " see if things work " . Again there

is a " belief " in the scientific method. I'm going to state here

emphatically that this is fundamentally a religious question ... not

spiritual ... ethnically religious.>>

 

>>CM is all about empiricism. CM has its own rituals and cultural

substrate of empiricism. We have ours ... called the Scientific

Method. Both are systems of belief. Yet both have consequences of

efficacy. I contend that you still have to be on a tennis court to

play tennis. It's appropriate to be in a boxing ring to box ... on a

basketball court to play basketball and so on. Everything has it's

own rituals.>>

 

Basically, I agree.

 

Nietsche made very interesting observations about science being a

transformation of Christianity, retaining many of its fundamental

characteristics. Kuhn, of course, exposes many of the self deceptions

inherent in scientific activity.

 

I think you're making an excellent point about being in a tennis court

to play tennis, etc. In practice, even when good rationales are given

for scientific research into CM, I feel uneasy, certainly not because

I'm afraid of the truth being revealed, but because it directs CM into

the scientific arena, where it really doesn't belong.

 

Also, one could question the whole political/power issues involved in

accepting that scientific process is an appropriate manner of

considering (=validating) CM. I.e acknowledging the hegemony of science.

 

 

 

Wainwright

[Guest guest]

I think one possible answer is to do research by collecting experiences

of Chinese medicine physicians and their patients. In other words, the

experiences of people practicing and receiving this medicine, using the

terminology of Chinese medicine. This should not be very different

from the case history literature catalogued over millenia in China.

This is presently considered to be 'anecdotal', but it will at least

serve our own profession, and our patients.

 

 

On Oct 29, 2003, at 5:58 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

>> So here's my real bottom line question. Who here is going to do

>> that research? It seem rather " precious " on the part of some people

>> to demand research without either knowing how to do it nor being

>> willing to learn enough to carry it out. Are the people who are

>> demanding this research going to be the ones to do it? To pay for

>> it? And if you decide to do it and/or pay for it, it's not clear to

>> me from any discussion here what the mission is.

[Guest guest]

I think we need a space to actually grow the herbs for use by the

public. Perhaps this is a possible use of this space?

 

 

On Oct 29, 2003, at 11:13 AM, kenrose2008 wrote:

 

> I think an herb garden would be a

> good courseroom space for teaching

> Chinese medicine. And the trees can

> keep an eye on everyone's progress.

>

> K

[Guest guest]

I think one possible answer is to do research by collecting experiences

of Chinese medicine physicians and their patients.

 

 

Zev,

There is certainly validity in this idea. And, part of the goal of the

scientific method is to differentiate the treatment effect from placebo.

If that is a valid pursuit, then how do you accomplish this without at

least borrowing from the placebo controlled design concept. How do you

differentiate the effects of your treatments from the psychological

benefits of your caring and confident demeanor?

 

I read recently in Mother Jones that in over half of the 47 clinical

trials used to obtain FDA approval for the top selling 6

antidepressants, the placebo group received greater therapeutic benefit

than the drug treatment groups. One placebo responder whose story was

related even had nausea along with her miraculous recovery, a common

side effect of the drug.

 

Regards,

Stephen

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

biomedical

profession has its own agenda for CAM - I don't want to look articles

up at the moment, but you may remember the New England Journal of

Medicine issue a few years back in which there was an impassioned call

for CAM to be subjected to scientific validation, with the phrase

'there is only one medicine'

>>>You are making my point here. We need to understand how to do it so we

control how its done. I see the main downside, if one thinks it is, as finding

some treatment do not work, or their magnitude is very small

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Precise and careful observation is a feature of the Chinese mind.

In my CM practice, I'm often amazed at the accuracy and insight of

what the Chinese knew, and this can only have come to us from an

intricate process of experimentation, observation, collating,

theorising, communicating...

>>>While they had one great prediction of an earthquake, which did save many

thoughts they could not replicate it since and many have died in China from

earthquakes

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel your ideas and information are always greatly appreciated

Alon