School discussion

October 30, 2003

One small correction:

Doug wrote:

>

> Yo-San University, under Richard Hammershlag, (forgive me Julie telling

this and if I

> get this wrong) tried institute a day-school only program for " serious "

non-working

> students. Their enrollment went way down. Some students were attracted to

the rigor

> (and the Taoist emphasis) but many after a few years left for other

schools. The

> students still needed the flexibility and Yo-San changed back to retain

these

> students.

That ill-fated experiment (day-only) never actually took place, but it was

advertised in Yo San's website and catalog for a whole year, and we did lose

enrollments for a while. We quickly realized that most acupuncture students

were not prepared for a day-only full-time program, and we maintained our

evening program and have done so ever since. I was the Associate Dean under

R. Hammerschlag at the time. It was a very unrealistic plan.

Julie

October 30, 2003

ACTCM in my time had only full time day only classes

alon

November 2, 2003

While we all worry about quality of education, cheating and what to teach

.... all important matters in their own right.... how about if the schools

disclosed that less then 10% of those who went on to graduate and get a

licence to practice will ever earn a living in Oriental Medicine. That 90%

of them are wasting their time and money as they will never be able to

practice. Armed with that truth how many " students " would choose to study

this art. So who is cheating who???

David

At 04:10 PM 11/2/2003, you wrote:

>We also have great competition here with 5 English language schools within

>about 15 blocks of each other, and 2 more on Long Island, and, unlike CA we

>have the issue of the Acupuncture program or the OM program. Mercy and

>Touro are probably the smallest of the programs, and certainly the most

>rigorous. Yes, some students leave to go to the other schools and I have

>seen schools accept students who fail out of the supposedly easy programs

>or who were kicked out for cheating. Do I think this should continue?

>Absolutely not. Will there always be schools where the less academically

>inclined can get in and get through? Absolutely. But this is no different

>than any other profession, including biomedicine. It is definitely up to

>the school administration to make determinations about the rigor of their

>program - and, as both Alon and I pointed out earlier, this is definitely

>at least in part an economic decision. If students don't stay in the

>program, the program can't continue. The Mercy and Touro programs both

>exist within larger institutions, and so do not have some of the economic

>concerns that the single subject schools have, but they still need to be

>economically viable and that means that they have to compete with the

>larger, less demanding programs. But, it is an evolution. Things are

>changing and ideally prospective students will become better educated about

>what is available and stop making choices based on convenience of location

>and convenience of classes.

>

>Marnae

>

>At 08:16 PM 11/2/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> >In LA we have 3 English language schools in close proximity and a few

> >others further

> >away. This creates an economic competitiveness. However that shouldn't

> >dissuade the

> >schools internally from creating a rigorous and demanding program. We also

> >have

> >schools that are known to be academically easy and some students gravitate

> >there as

> >their studies get more demanding.

> >I've also seen the phenomenon where a student will be taking a heavy,

> >heavy load in

> >order to get through quickly. I really object to this. They seem to suffer

> >more than the

> >full-time working student. Many are very bright so they manage to " budget

> >their

> >knowledge " . Do you know if the accrediation bodies address this?

> >

> >Just for the record, most of your next post, quotes me at the beginning...

> >I believe the

> >rest is a response from KR.

> >

> >And personally, I like Mini disc recorders.

> >doug

> >

> > , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote:

> > > I can't agree that it is unrealistic. Two programs here in NY currently

> > > run day only programs - Touro College and Mercy College. Yes, both

> suffer

> > > from some enrollment problems, but in general the student who does choose

> > > to go to these programs is highly motivated and well-educated - and as I

> > > watch the Touro students advance through the program I am amazed at how

> > > much better a student they are than those who are trying to work full

> time

> > > while going to school at night. In the 4 schools where I have worked -

> > > both as a teacher and an administrator - it has always been that the

> night

> > > students were, in general, the weakest students. This does not mean that

> > > individual students will not shine no matter when they attend classes,

> > > but...it simply is not conducive to studying when you get out of class at

> > > 9:00 (or at one school at 11:00) at night and have to be at work at

> > 9:00 am

> > > the next day. As I wrote earlier, it is definitely an uphill battle,

> > to up

> > > the ante of a program and of the requirements to enter that program,

> > but if

> > > we have a few who are willing to take the risk, it can be hoped that

> > others

> > > will follow.

> > >

> >

> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> >professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

> >

November 2, 2003

-

" David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc

Sunday, November 02, 2003 7:24 PM

Re: School discussion

> While we all worry about quality of education, cheating and what to teach

> ... all important matters in their own right.... how about if the schools

> disclosed that less then 10% of those who went on to graduate and get a

> licence to practice will ever earn a living in Oriental Medicine.

David,

Who are you and where are you coming from? What is your direct experience

with schools and graduates?

That 90%

> of them are wasting their time and money as they will never be able to

> practice. Armed with that truth how many " students " would choose to study

> this art. So who is cheating who???

>

Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the percentage of

their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part time, then

by choice or not, etc. I have been on numerous accreditation site visits and

I have been involved in producing these statistics for the school where I

teach, and I have never seen a number like the 10% you stated. Please state

where you got that information. Otherwise, you are being very misleading and

inflammatory. I demand that you back up your statement.

Julie

November 3, 2003

Unfortunately yes. It has always amazed me. For cheating to get reported,

there must be support from the administration that it will be dealt with in

an appropriate manner (like immediate suspension) but unfortunately too

often teachers feel that they will not be supported and may put their jobs

in jeopardy if they try to hold their students to standards.

Marnae

At 02:48 PM 11/2/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>Marnae,

>

>You've hit a nerve that I would like to open to discussion. Cheating. I

>find it rampant particularly among our foreign (Korean and Chinese)

>students, and generally met with a laissez faire attitude by faculty and

>administration, at best all talk and little action. Do you (plural) find

>that to be the case elsewhere?

>

>Yehuda

>

>______________

>The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

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>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

November 3, 2003

If it goes this way, then it must be assumed that some people will be

eliminated as students purely for economic reasons. All the desire in the

world won't cut it if you don't have the money. Student loans will pay the

tuition but not the other bills. And yes, it is hell to try to study with

any effectiveness when you have an 8-hour work day and a 6-hour school day

in the same 24 hours. Does that mean forget about studying this field?

Should it be as elitist as Western medical school in that respect?

Pat

I can't agree that it is unrealistic. Two programs here in NY currently

run day only programs - Touro College and Mercy College. Yes, both suffer

from some enrollment problems, but in general the student who does choose

to go to these programs is highly motivated and well-educated - and as I

watch the Touro students advance through the program I am amazed at how

much better a student they are than those who are trying to work full time

while going to school at night. In the 4 schools where I have worked -

both as a teacher and an administrator - it has always been that the night

students were, in general, the weakest students. This does not mean that

individual students will not shine no matter when they attend classes,

but...it simply is not conducive to studying when you get out of class at

9:00 (or at one school at 11:00) at night and have to be at work at 9:00 am

the next day. As I wrote earlier, it is definitely an uphill battle, to up

the ante of a program and of the requirements to enter that program, but if

we have a few who are willing to take the risk, it can be hoped that others

will follow.

Marnae

At 12:04 PM 10/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:

>One small correction:

>

>Doug wrote:

> >

> > Yo-San University, under Richard Hammershlag, (forgive me Julie telling

>this and if I

> > get this wrong) tried institute a day-school only program for " serious "

>non-working

> > students. Their enrollment went way down. Some students were attracted

to

>the rigor

> > (and the Taoist emphasis) but many after a few years left for other

>schools. The

> > students still needed the flexibility and Yo-San changed back to retain

>these

> > students.

>

>That ill-fated experiment (day-only) never actually took place, but it was

>advertised in Yo San's website and catalog for a whole year, and we did

lose

>enrollments for a while. We quickly realized that most acupuncture

students

>were not prepared for a day-only full-time program, and we maintained our

>evening program and have done so ever since. I was the Associate Dean

under

>R. Hammerschlag at the time. It was a very unrealistic plan.

>

>Julie

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

>

November 3, 2003

Students can make a difference in this too. I remember being outraged at

how openly people were cheating early in the program when I was at Pacific

NY; I and several other students (I think you were one of them) complained

about this repeatedly until steps were taken to improve the situation.

Some of the steps were very basic and " obvious " and it did make a

difference. If the teachers are afraid (another good reason for a

teachers' organization), then the students should take action. It is their

work that is being demeaned by the cheating of others, after all. But I

agree that the administration must follow through. If the Pacific

administrators had not responded as they did, I think I would have

transferred elsewhere -- I couldn't sit still for what was going on.

Pat

Unfortunately yes. It has always amazed me. For cheating to get reported,

there must be support from the administration that it will be dealt with in

an appropriate manner (like immediate suspension) but unfortunately too

often teachers feel that they will not be supported and may put their jobs

in jeopardy if they try to hold their students to standards.

Marnae

At 02:48 PM 11/2/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>Marnae,

>

>You've hit a nerve that I would like to open to discussion. Cheating. I

>find it rampant particularly among our foreign (Korean and Chinese)

>students, and generally met with a laissez faire attitude by faculty and

>administration, at best all talk and little action. Do you (plural) find

>that to be the case elsewhere?

>

>Yehuda

>

November 3, 2003

Yes this would be quite interesting.... how many after one year ... 2, ...

3, .... 4, .... 5,.....

Of course the one year number is meaningless .... ;-)

My source is highly regarded ..... but lets get to that later ... maybe he

will choose to join the conversation as he does post here.

Lets hear what the schools have to say ... if they keep such records and

care to share them.

David

At 06:12 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

>Julie,

> >

> > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> percentage of

> > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part time,

> then

> > by choice or not, etc. I have been on numerous accreditation site

> visits and

> > I have been involved in producing these statistics for the school where I

> > teach, and I have never seen a number like the 10% you stated.

>

> > Julie

>

>Where can one obtain these statistics?

>What are the actual numbers?

>

>Ken

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

November 3, 2003

Pat -

I don't think that it will ever go completely that way but I do think that

we need to start thinking about it. Not to try to make it elitist, but,

indeed, graduate school in general is elitist. And students cannot expect

tat a curriculum will be modeled to their needs - a curriculum should be

modeled to provide the best education possible, with the best faculty

possible. Rather than scheduling a class when it is most convenient,

schedule a class when the best teacher can teach it.

marnae

At 12:01 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>If it goes this way, then it must be assumed that some people will be

>eliminated as students purely for economic reasons. All the desire in the

>world won't cut it if you don't have the money. Student loans will pay the

>tuition but not the other bills. And yes, it is hell to try to study with

>any effectiveness when you have an 8-hour work day and a 6-hour school day

>in the same 24 hours. Does that mean forget about studying this field?

>Should it be as elitist as Western medical school in that respect?

>

>Pat

>

>I can't agree that it is unrealistic. Two programs here in NY currently

>run day only programs - Touro College and Mercy College. Yes, both suffer

>from some enrollment problems, but in general the student who does choose

>to go to these programs is highly motivated and well-educated - and as I

>watch the Touro students advance through the program I am amazed at how

>much better a student they are than those who are trying to work full time

>while going to school at night. In the 4 schools where I have worked -

>both as a teacher and an administrator - it has always been that the night

>students were, in general, the weakest students. This does not mean that

>individual students will not shine no matter when they attend classes,

>but...it simply is not conducive to studying when you get out of class at

>9:00 (or at one school at 11:00) at night and have to be at work at 9:00 am

>

>the next day. As I wrote earlier, it is definitely an uphill battle, to up

>

>the ante of a program and of the requirements to enter that program, but if

>

>we have a few who are willing to take the risk, it can be hoped that others

>

>will follow.

>

>Marnae

>

>At 12:04 PM 10/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:

> >One small correction:

> >

> >Doug wrote:

> > >

> > > Yo-San University, under Richard Hammershlag, (forgive me Julie telling

> >this and if I

> > > get this wrong) tried institute a day-school only program for " serious "

> >non-working

> > > students. Their enrollment went way down. Some students were attracted

>to

> >the rigor

> > > (and the Taoist emphasis) but many after a few years left for other

> >schools. The

> > > students still needed the flexibility and Yo-San changed back to retain

> >these

> > > students.

> >

> >That ill-fated experiment (day-only) never actually took place, but it was

> >advertised in Yo San's website and catalog for a whole year, and we did

>lose

> >enrollments for a while. We quickly realized that most acupuncture

>students

> >were not prepared for a day-only full-time program, and we maintained our

> >evening program and have done so ever since. I was the Associate Dean

>under

> >R. Hammerschlag at the time. It was a very unrealistic plan.

> >

> >Julie

> >

> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> >professional services, including board approved online continuing

>education.

> >

November 3, 2003

Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right

to release them. They are figures that each school generates and they

become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document.

Marnae

At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>Julie,

> >

> > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> percentage of

> > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part time,

> then

> > by choice or not, etc. I have been on numerous accreditation site

> visits and

> > I have been involved in producing these statistics for the school where I

> > teach, and I have never seen a number like the 10% you stated.

>

> > Julie

>

>Where can one obtain these statistics?

>What are the actual numbers?

>

>Ken

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

November 3, 2003

Dear David Sontag,

If the below is your answer to my question yesterday to back up your

statement that only 10% of graduates go on to ever earn a living practicing

Chinese medicine -- and I can't tell if this is your answer or not -- then,

I'm sorry, it won't do.

You cannot make a statement like that and then not back it up. You are

smearing our entire profession without the slightest evidence. " Your

source " -- are you saying there is one " source " who claims to know what

percentage of graduates earn a living at Chinese medicine? And that it is

10%? That is preposterous, and I cannot believe others on this list are

allowing this statement to go unchallenged.

Again, I ask you to give your evidence or retract your statement.

Julie

-

" David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc

Monday, November 03, 2003 4:45 PM

Re: School discussion

> Yes this would be quite interesting.... how many after one year ... 2, ...

> 3, .... 4, .... 5,.....

>

> Of course the one year number is meaningless .... ;-)

>

> My source is highly regarded ..... but lets get to that later ... maybe he

> will choose to join the conversation as he does post here.

>

> Lets hear what the schools have to say ... if they keep such records and

> care to share them.

>

> David

>

November 3, 2003

Hi Marnae,

At 08:22 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

>Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right

>to release them.

Hmm ... does not have the right?? or just does not wish to??

>They are figures that each school generates and they

>become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document.

I bet!

>Marnae

David

>At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> >Julie,

> > >

> > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> > percentage of

> > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part time,

> > then

> > > by choice or not, etc. I have been on numerous accreditation site

> > visits and

> > > I have been involved in producing these statistics for the school where I

> > > teach, and I have never seen a number like the 10% you stated.

> >

> > > Julie

> >

> >Where can one obtain these statistics?

> >What are the actual numbers?

> >

> >Ken

> >

> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

> >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

> >professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

> >

November 3, 2003

-

" kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008

Monday, November 03, 2003 4:12 PM

Re: School discussion

> Where can one obtain these statistics?

> What are the actual numbers?

>

> Ken

Ken, I know the schools have to report these numbers each year to ACAOM. I

know that ACAOM's accreditation and re-accreditation reports become public

record after the public hearings are held. What I do not know is if this

level of detail is part of the reports that become public.

Also, though I have been on several site visits, I cannot remember exact

numbers, so I do not want to quote them. I can tell you one thing for sure:

if I reviewed a school that reported that only 10% of its graduates were in

practice, that would be considered a serious finding, worthy of

investigation. And I destroy all documents I receive as a site visitor one

my work is over. I cannot even quote Yo San's numbers from heart, because I

was not involved in the preparation of the last few reports, since I am no

longer the Dean. However, I will state that closer to 70% (perhaps higher)

of all graduates are in practice of some sort, either part time or full

time...possibly even 90%. I would be happy to ask the present Dean if he

would share the latest statistics.

And since there is interest in this topic, why don't we all do the same

(those of us who are affiliated with a school) and ask our Deans or

Registrars for the numbers?

Julie

November 3, 2003

At 08:32 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

>Marnae,

>

> , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...>

>wrote:

> > Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right

> > to release them. They are figures that each school generates and they

> > become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document.

> >

> > Marnae

> >

> > At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote:

> > >Julie,

> > > >

> > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the

> > > percentage of

> > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part

> time,

> > > then

> > > > by choice or not, etc.

>

>Thanks. Do you know why?

>

>It seems that such information would be

>of enormous interest to potential students.

Yes to potential students for sure and the rest of us as well ... no?

But, lets say for the sake of an exercise ... the number is greater the

10%.... would even 25% justify the time and expense of the undertaking ....

75% of the grads never end up practicing.

First ... I would say 25% is way high... and it still would not justify

the schooling.. time and costs and all

I was told the future is bright.... and lots of other stories... I do make

a living .. hard won I might add. Most of the people I went to school with

are no where to be found. Are more then 10% around...yes .. not a whole

lot more.... but unlike me many have jobs like flight attendants, RNs LMTs

etc... far less then 10% just make their living just from the practice of

Oriental Medicine.

>Ken

David

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

November 3, 2003

, " David Sontag, DOM " <

acudoc@b...> wrote:

these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right

> >to release them.

>

> Hmm ... does not have the right?? or just does not wish to??

They are legally prohibited. It is not a judgement call. But if ACAOM truly

has

this data, we all ethically deserve to see it in some form that does not violate

either school or student confidentiality. If all the results from every school

were collated and presented as one piece of data, no one would be outed and

we would have what we need. Perhaps a lawsuit is in order. If exaggerated

claims of success are being made to recruit students and they are untrue, this

is a serious matter.

November 3, 2003

Dear Julie,

At 09:21 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote:

>Dear David Sontag,

>

>If the below is your answer to my question yesterday to back up your

>statement that only 10% of graduates go on to ever earn a living practicing

>Chinese medicine -- and I can't tell if this is your answer or not -- then,

>I'm sorry, it won't do.

Well, I am sorry it won't do for you .... the people with the " real "

numbers do not appear to want to make them public.

Who said there are lies, dam lies and statistics...

>You cannot make a statement like that and then not back it up.

As I say further on ... what is if the number is 25% or even 35%... does

that really change things??

>You are

>smearing our entire profession without the slightest evidence. " Your

>source " -- are you saying there is one " source " who claims to know what

>percentage of graduates earn a living at Chinese medicine? And that it is

>10%?

I will not out my source...either he / she will post as to the matter or

not... I have never know this person to lie or speak lightly.

>That is preposterous, and I cannot believe others on this list are

>allowing this statement to go unchallenged.

Preposterous ...you say the last published study had the average income in

our profession at $24,000 per year ... that is below the poverty level....

maybe its a bit more then 10% ... maybe it is not so preposterous.... or

why are the numbers being so closely held by those who know??

>Again, I ask you to give your evidence or retract your statement.

Thanks for asking..... prove me wrong....

>Julie

David

>-

> " David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc

>

>Monday, November 03, 2003 4:45 PM

>Re: School discussion

>

> > Yes this would be quite interesting.... how many after one year ... 2, ...

> > 3, .... 4, .... 5,.....

> >

> > Of course the one year number is meaningless .... ;-)

> >

> > My source is highly regarded ..... but lets get to that later ... maybe he

> > will choose to join the conversation as he does post here.

> >

> > Lets hear what the schools have to say ... if they keep such records and

> > care to share them.

> >

> > David

> >

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

November 3, 2003

I was told the future is bright.... and lots of other stories... I do make

a living .. hard won I might add. Most of the people I went to school with

are no where to be found. Are more then 10% around...yes .. not a whole

lot more.... but unlike me many have jobs like flight attendants, RNs LMTs

etc... far less then 10% just make their living just from the practice of

Oriental Medicine.

>>>The only comment i can make is that it is amazing how many people have told

me they cant afford CEU classes, even some that have been around since the 1980s

alon

November 3, 2003

Ken,

You need to understand something: when one is hired to be a site visitor for

ACAOM, one is given confidential documents about the school under review.

One is not allowed to discuss those confidential documents except with the

site team. After the site visit is complete, and the visitors submit their

reports, the original documentation (which consists of the school's

self-study report and a whole bunch of detailed documents) is no longer

needed, and is destroyed. It is not a " paper trail " I am destroying, it is

a set of confidential documents that were given to me so I could make an

educated site visit.

Do you understand now?

Julie

-

" kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008

Monday, November 03, 2003 7:49 PM

Re: School discussion

> Julie,

>

> Thanks for the data and for following up.

>

> I think it would be a very good idea to get

> this kind of information out of the cloak and

> dagger mode and into the public view where

> it can be evaluated by people who have an

> interest in the field.

>

> Why on earth do you burn documents?

>

> What is the purpose of destroying the paper

> trail?

>

November 3, 2003

David Sontag wrote:

> Well, I am sorry it won't do for you .... the people with the " real "

> numbers do not appear to want to make them public.

How could any one person have the " real " numbers?

>

> As I say further on ... what is if the number is 25% or even 35%... does

> that really change things??

Well, for one thing, it changes your own original lie of 10%.

>

> I will not out my source...either he / she will post as to the matter or

> not... I have never know this person to lie or speak lightly.

> Preposterous ...you say the last published study had the average income

in

> our profession at $24,000 per year ... that is below the poverty level....

> maybe its a bit more then 10% ... maybe it is not so preposterous.... or

> why are the numbers being so closely held by those who know??

Who knows?

>Again, I ask you to give your evidence or retract your statement.

>

> Thanks for asking..... prove me wrong....

I cannot prove you wrong. You made an outrageous statement which you

obviously cannot support. Your bitterness seems to come from your own

disillusionment about your expectations from this profession.

I am a graduate of Yo San University in Los Angeles. It is a small school,

but I can tell you that every single person in my graduating class (Class of

1996) and most of the people I went to school with are practicing and are

making a good living.

If your cohorts are not, this is not a good enough reason to state that 10%

cannot make a living.

By the way, since you are a DOM, this implies that you either graduated many

years ago or are in New Mexico or another state with such a doctorate by

licensing. Is this correct? Not that it sheds any light on the current

argument, I am just curious where you are and what your educational

background is that you seem to feel so dissatisfied about.

Julie

>

> >-

> > " David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc

> >

> >Monday, November 03, 2003 4:45 PM

> >Re: School discussion

> >

November 3, 2003

>

> Preposterous ...you say the last published study had the average income

in

> our profession at $24,000 per year ... that is below the poverty level....

> maybe its a bit more then 10% ... maybe it is not so preposterous.... or

> why are the numbers being so closely held by those who know??

>

I find this difficult to believe. I just finished my 2nd year of practice

and am making twice that much and plan to double that, in the next 2 years.

It is easy to blame other people, places and things. I live in a area that

is heavily, very heavily populated with Acupuncturists and herbalists,

however *still* seeem to find myself VERY busy! I have never, as of yet

been questioned by any so called *polls* or *surveys*, as to what my income

is. There is an abundance of opportunity for our profession. I think allot

of people limit themselves. If someone is only making 24,000.00/year...

then one must be limiting their opportunity and or worth! Then again, maybe

its about self belief systems. For example, I believe I am totally

co-creating this experience of being .

Teresa

Very happy with my education

----------

----

November 3, 2003

Hi Teresa

, " Teresa Hall " <

Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

> >

> I find this difficult to believe. I just finished my 2nd year of practice

> and am making twice that much and plan to double that, in the next 2 years.

Sounds like you are off to a good start. Could I ask if this is your income

solely

from seeing patients? Or do you include other things a person might do -

write, teach, sales rep, etc.?

November 4, 2003

In a message dated 11/4/2003 10:06:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

pat.ethridge writes:

And students cannot expect

tat a curriculum will be modeled to their needs - a curriculum should be

modeled to provide the best education possible, with the best faculty

possible. Rather than scheduling a class when it is most convenient,

schedule a class when the best teacher can teach it.

marnae

Since we are talking Grad school, we can assume that many of the

enrollees will be licensed and experienced. Given that, the question is, who

knows

better than the individual licensed professional, which direction they would

like to go in their practice? What are the interests that would propel the

partitioner deeper into an interest?

In addition, you say schedule a class so the best teacher can teach it.

How do you decide who the " best " teacher is? There are a lots of teachers in

this list. Who is the best one?

After a person has received a license to perform, the direction of study

for that person should ultimately fall on the shoulders of that person.

Given a free educational environment, we will see lots of new and great

research that will support our profession. If educational direction is left to

a few administrators, we will find people in their prime with creative energy

to expand the boundies of knowledge, pigeonholed in the past.

Best regards,

Chris

November 4, 2003

That obviously is part of the equation too.

Pat

Pat -

I don't think that it will ever go completely that way but I do think that

we need to start thinking about it. Not to try to make it elitist, but,

indeed, graduate school in general is elitist. And students cannot expect

tat a curriculum will be modeled to their needs - a curriculum should be

modeled to provide the best education possible, with the best faculty

possible. Rather than scheduling a class when it is most convenient,

schedule a class when the best teacher can teach it.

marnae

At 12:01 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote:

>If it goes this way, then it must be assumed that some people will be

>eliminated as students purely for economic reasons. All the desire in the

>world won't cut it if you don't have the money. Student loans will pay

the