Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 David - where did you go to school? Where do you live? Of my graduating class from PCOM NY I would hazard a guess that over 60% are in practice at least part time. Many of them teach and write and do other things related to the field in addition to their practice. I do think that the percent of individuals in practice has something to do with where they graduate from, where they live and whether or not they are willing to move to a more underserved area. Marnae At 09:43 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: >At 08:32 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote: > >Marnae, > > > > , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> > >wrote: > > > Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the > right > > > to release them. They are figures that each school generates and they > > > become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document. > > > > > > Marnae > > > > > > At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Julie, > > > > > > > > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the > > > > percentage of > > > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part > > time, > > > > then > > > > > by choice or not, etc. > > > >Thanks. Do you know why? > > > >It seems that such information would be > >of enormous interest to potential students. > >Yes to potential students for sure and the rest of us as well ... no? > >But, lets say for the sake of an exercise ... the number is greater the >10%.... would even 25% justify the time and expense of the undertaking .... >75% of the grads never end up practicing. > >First ... I would say 25% is way high... and it still would not justify >the schooling.. time and costs and all > >I was told the future is bright.... and lots of other stories... I do make >a living .. hard won I might add. Most of the people I went to school with >are no where to be found. Are more then 10% around...yes .. not a whole >lot more.... but unlike me many have jobs like flight attendants, RNs LMTs >etc... far less then 10% just make their living just from the practice of >Oriental Medicine. > > > >Ken > > >David > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of > >professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Todd - A lawsuit? Perhaps just an open request to compile this sort of information - and more likely it would be addressed to the CCAOM and not to ACAOM. At 02:46 AM 11/4/2003 +0000, you wrote: > , " David Sontag, DOM " < >acudoc@b...> wrote: > >these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right > > >to release them. > > > > Hmm ... does not have the right?? or just does not wish to?? > >They are legally prohibited. It is not a judgement call. But if ACAOM >truly has >this data, we all ethically deserve to see it in some form that does not >violate >either school or student confidentiality. If all the results from every >school >were collated and presented as one piece of data, no one would be outed and >we would have what we need. Perhaps a lawsuit is in order. If exaggerated >claims of success are being made to recruit students and they are untrue, >this >is a serious matter. > >Todd > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of >professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Hi Todd - The money I am making, so far is primarily from seeing patients. So far, I have not made any profits from distributing Kampo herbs... this *I think* takes more time. I generally charge $65.00/treatment and include herbs, if needed. For some of my procedures I charge more or less... for example, when I do IVF protocals I charge $500.00. I have had a really great success rate with this procedure and feel that is what my worth is... for this procedure. I charge less to students and seniors etc. I feel one thing that has added to my doing well, is that I have been willing to do insurances... which with Work Comp was a HUGE learning curve... and now feel VERY comfortable with. Iam beginning to get allot of referrals from word of mouth... which is really GREAT! Also, I have learned to interact with MD's and get referrals from them. I know there is allot of opportunity for our profession, on so many different levels! Another thing I contribute to my doing well is that I have done over 400 CEU's, in the last 2 years. I believe the schools and our education only scratch the surface... what is that saying... there our infinate ways to get up the mountain, as there are to practice medicine? Having sat numerous times with the California Board to write exams... what I have learned is that our education and licensure is designed for entry level, into our field... in other words *the Basics*. I feel it is imperative to continue to learn more and to further our own individual healing... I believe all this creates a foundation for doing well. In health- Teresa - " " < Monday, November 03, 2003 10:58 PM Re: School discussion > Hi Teresa > > , " Teresa Hall " < > Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote: > > > > > > I find this difficult to believe. I just finished my 2nd year of practice > > and am making twice that much and plan to double that, in the next 2 years. > > > Sounds like you are off to a good start. Could I ask if this is your income solely > from seeing patients? Or do you include other things a person might do - > write, teach, sales rep, etc.? > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 In a message dated 11/4/2003 12:09:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: no ones stopping anyone from that. but degree granting schools have a different mission and a different responsibility to the public. My apologies. I thought we were talking about schooling above and beyond the original masters program. As a side, my school was very new when I went. The administration was still developing the curriculum and the state was changing the requirements seemly every year. What this meant for us was we as students had a major influence on the curriculum as we gave feedback as to how long we really needed to understand and learn different aspects of our curriculum. We also requested additions to the curriculum which helped us gain a better rounded education. I believe the process was beneficial. Schools that have had the time to work with the curriculum and iron our the problems have the benefit of knowing what is best, because they have had the time to find out what works best to bring the student understanding of the courses up to the schools desired level of competency. My opinion about students participation has been biased because of the unusual situation of our school being so new and changing so much to meet changes required by the state. Thanks for your input, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Chris, , Musiclear@a... wrote: > Since we are talking Grad school, we can assume that many of the > enrollees will be licensed and experienced. I thought we are talking about the master's program. In which case students are not yet licensed and experienced. Given that, the question is, who knows > better than the individual licensed professional, which direction they would > like to go in their practice? What are the interests that would propel the > partitioner deeper into an interest? But even if we were talking about the second tier DAOM degree, is it really students who know best. If a px thinks he knows where he wants to pursue his studies, he always has the freedom to do so on his own. But students do not design medical curriculums at any level. The idea behind the DAOM program is that the material being offered there was not offered at the master's. And after many years of consideration by the schools and accreditors, various progams were designed. There are thus options for those with different interests. for ex, only PCOM requires chinese language. But OCOM does its internship in China. However, in each case, these options were designed by those who do have the knowledge and experience the licensees are lacking, either because they have advanced training or degrees themselves. How can one who lacks the knowledge decise how to best teach that knowledge or what knowledge is necessary. You might know you want to pursue research or GYN and those options are vailable. But you cannot decide at PCOM that you will study the shang hand lun, but not the nei jing, for ex. To let the students at any level decide the curriculum would completely turn the traditional master/apprentice system on its head. Right now, at least some remnant of authority and transmission remain. Its not just anything goes. Students need to have input, but this should rightly come in soliciting ideas before the fact and evals after the fact. But med school cannot be run like UC Santa Cruz where students completely design their own programs. But perhaps that is not what you are suggesting. PCOM surveyed what students wanted and created a curriculum to address those needs. I think that addresses student concerns while not sacrificing expert authority. For the masters, this whole point is moot. Students cannot possibly know what constitutes a proper master's education in TCM > In addition, you say schedule a class so the best teacher can teach it. > How do you decide who the " best " teacher is? by student evaluations and peer reviews and outcomes studies. do you have a better idea. > After a person has received a license to perform, the direction of study > for that person should ultimately fall on the shoulders of that person. no ones stopping anyone from that. but degree granting schools have a different mission and a different responsibility to the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 In a message dated 11/4/2003 5:34:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, acudoc writes: there in no data presented by which one can base a reasonable decision ... i.e. " the future is bright " The future is bright. The problem as I see it is not that the schools are deficient in their CM courses. It is that they are deficient in marketing courses. I know of good Physicians who lack the marketing skills to reach the community and are slow. I know of marginal practitioners that have a thriving practice. The difference isn't how learned they became in school. It is in their ability to move people into excitement about the possibility of attaining the patients goals. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Ken, I don't know the answers to your questions. I am not an ACAOM commissioner (obviously), just an occasional site visitor. At Yo San, if a prospective student asked for stats like attrition rates, placement rates, etc., they would be given that information. It would be to no one's benefit to keep that information from prospective students. Julie - " kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008 Tuesday, November 04, 2003 1:27 AM Re: School discussion > Julie, > > I understand what you've said, but I probably don't > grasp the significance of the whole process. > > I'm not sure what all the secrecy and confidentiality > is about. Why can't the whole process be transparent? > > From whom must the confidential documents be > kept confidential? > > And what would happen if their contents were > generally accessible? > > Ken > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Ken said: > Marnae's comments shed a little additional > light on the topic, but I'm still left scratching > my head about how a school can be damaged > by revelation of information concerning > such matters as are apparent to someone > making a site visit. > > And the cultural commentary contained > in your statement that you burn the documents > struck me as symbolic of some sort of > primal fear associated with the business > of Chinese medical information. I never said I " burn " the documents...I said I " destroy " them. I do this, not because I feel there is anything dangerous about them, nor to cover anything up. I do it because the documents were lent to me in confidentiality in order to assist me in my work as a site visitor, and when my work is done, and my report has been submitted, the entire project is no longer in my hands, and therefore, I shred ( or actually, not owning a shredder, I just take apart the binders and documents and get rid of them in my recycle container) the documents. By the way, the documents do not have anything to do with " Chinese medical information " (I quote you above), but with the school's operation, facilities, financial statements, evaluation of faculty, etc. > > Marnae says that such precautions are par > for the course in accreditation procedures. > > If someone does a site visit to Harvard Medical > School, let's say, are they obliged either > by rules or by standard practice to destroy > their notes to ensure that they cannot fall > into the wrong hands? I couldn't say. > > Even the CIA leaves some records behind > of what it develops in the way of intelligence, > and one of the concerns for record keeping > is that historians (or members of other > disciplines) should be able to review processes > such as this and their outcomes. > > I am not imparting motives to you, but normaly > when we hear about destruction of documents > images of nervous accountants at Arthur Anderson > dealing with situations like their Enron account > come to mind...or the like. Remember that I am only destroying MY COPY of the documents that were lent to me. The ACAOM commissioner who heads up the project most likely keeps a copy on file, and of course the school being reviewed keeps a copy of its entire self study documentation . You are making WAY too big a deal out of the fact that I destroy what was given to me. I am but one small part of the entire project of accreditation site visits. > > It just struck me as odd that the process is > shrouded in such secrecy and that you > consider it so normal. Think of it this way: if you were an auditor who worked for a large CPA firm, and you were sent to look over the books of Company A, and while there you were given PHOTOCOPIES of their profit and loss statement. Then you did your work, wrote your audit, submitted your report, whatever...and at the end of all this you still had some photocopies of the Company's P & L. You don't need it any more, the originals exist in the Company's files, and you shred it because it is a confidential document that was lent to you by your client. Maybe the main problem you have is that the information is considered confidential in the first place. You'd have to take that up with ACAOM. In my mind, since it is confidential, and when I was hired, I was made to understand that, it seems perfectly " normal " that I would destroy documents once I am done with them. Julie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Marnae, At 10:45 AM 11/4/2003, you wrote: >David - > >An accreditation self study report and the report generated by the site >visiting team are absolutely confidential. The school may choose to >disseminate as much information as it wishes, but site visitors and >commissioners may not. This is standard practice in all accreditation >commissions and is at the very core of what makes accreditation a collegial >process. > >Again - unless you are willing to come forth with your source, your >statements are inappropriate Again I am repeating it from a person I consider very credible ... maybe they spoke out of " school " ... but I will not out him / or her ... as that person could join the discussion ... they have not up to this point maybe ... and I do not know ...they do not want to be placed in the position of having to reveal their source. Inappropriate ... maybe.... but the point is that too many people go to our schools ... only to find out ... too late- that.... they cannot make a viable living practicing Oriental / . What number is too many ... 90%... 75%.... 50%.... 25% ??? I think Ken has it right--- transparency is the answer. >Marnae David >At 09:25 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi Marnae, > > > > > >At 08:22 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote: > > >Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the right > > >to release them. > > > >Hmm ... does not have the right?? or just does not wish to?? > > > > >They are figures that each school generates and they > > >become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public document. > > > >I bet! > > > > > > >Marnae > > > >David > > > > > > >At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Julie, > > > > > > > > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the > > > > percentage of > > > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part > time, > > > > then > > > > > by choice or not, etc. I have been on numerous accreditation site > > > > visits and > > > > > I have been involved in producing these statistics for the school > > where I > > > > > teach, and I have never seen a number like the 10% you stated. > > > > > > > > > Julie > > > > > > > >Where can one obtain these statistics? > > > >What are the actual numbers? > > > > > > > >Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare > > > >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > > > >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of > > > >professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 At 11:34 AM -0700 11/4/03, Julie Chambers wrote: >Maybe the main problem you have is that the information is considered >confidential in the first place. You'd have to take that up with ACAOM. In >my mind, since it is confidential, and when I was hired, I was made to >understand that, it seems perfectly " normal " that I would destroy documents >once I am done with them. -- ....and not to forget that site visit documents may include information about students and employees that is legally protect under the individual's right to privacy. To breach such confidentiality would have legal consequences beyond ACAOM's agreement with the school. I think it would be an interesting idea for people on this list to call their alma mater and ask for the most recent figures, and report back to this list how the school responded. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 > > I think it would be an interesting idea for people on this list to > call their alma mater and ask for the most recent figures, and report > back to this list how the school responded. > > Rory Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is significantly telling (in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that the schools are misleading people) because if they really weren't making it, they would have dropped out long before Year Five. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 At 2:20 PM -0700 11/4/03, Julie Chambers wrote: >Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who >have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report >back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be >expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where >are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is >significantly telling (in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that >the schools are misleading people) because if they really weren't making it, >they would have dropped out long before Year Five. -- To make it simple, just two years and five years out v. full-time, part-time and dropped. Ask for exact figures, numbers and percentages, as given to ACAOM. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 At 04:20 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote: > > > > I think it would be an interesting idea for people on this list to > > call their alma mater and ask for the most recent figures, and report > > back to this list how the school responded. > > > > Rory > > >Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who >have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report >back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be >expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where >are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is >significantly telling Why... I know people who are still " hang on " to their dream after 5 years.... >(in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that >the schools are misleading people) I do not quite mean that the schools are misleading .... but more like there in no data presented by which one can base a reasonable decision ... i.e. " the future is bright " Meaningful data is not presented ... placement... now that must be a joke ...no? >because if they really weren't making it, >they would have dropped out long before Year Five. No --- I do not agree... it is not my experience of the world around here (Florida) >Julie David > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of >professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 To make it simple, just two years and five years out v. full-time, part-time and dropped. Ask for exact figures, numbers and percentages, as given to ACAOM. >>>>I would wage that you will not get an answer alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Let look at it another way... it you look at " regular " Medical Grads that get Licensed.... how many are not able to earn a living after say... 2 .. or then 5 years 90%... 50%.... 25% < 10% Anyway that is my point ... and I would bet those stats are not a " secret " . My guess is you could call any Medical School and ask.... of all your grads the get Licensed what percent are employ/ earning a living after 2 .. then 5 years and what is the average dollars number... If they do not have it I bet they know who does... David At 04:36 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote: >At 2:20 PM -0700 11/4/03, Julie Chambers wrote: > >Good idea, and people should be careful to distinguish between grads who > >have been out one year, two years, five years, etc. so that when we report > >back, we know exactly what we are talking about. Most grads could be > >expected to be in at least a part-time practice after Year One, but where > >are they at Year Three? If they drop out at Year Five, I don't think that is > >significantly telling (in terms of David Sontag's original assertion that > >the schools are misleading people) because if they really weren't making it, > >they would have dropped out long before Year Five. >-- > >To make it simple, just two years and five years out v. full-time, >part-time and dropped. > >Ask for exact figures, numbers and percentages, as given to ACAOM. > >Rory >-- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 At 5:45 PM -0500 11/4/03, David Sontag, DOM wrote: >My guess is you could call any Medical School and ask.... of all your grads >the get Licensed what percent are employ/ earning a living after 2 .. then >5 years and what is the average dollars number... If they do not have it I >bet they know who does... -- David, Why don't you call the school you went to, or even some other schools, and report back to us their responses? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 At 06:22 PM 11/4/2003, you wrote: > >bet they know who does... > >-- > >David, > >Why don't you call the school you went to, or even some other >schools, and report back to us their responses? > >Rory Hi Rory Sure... But ... they do not have the faintest idea.... the only time I ever hear from them is when the invite me to take a CEU course.... and the only reason they can find me is I have not moved...But I will give them a call just for laughs. Then I will call Nova South East ... a Med School in the same area... and let see what they have to say. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 At 10:48 AM 11/4/2003, you wrote: >David - where did you go to school? Where do you live? The Atlantic Institute of Oriental Medicine ... Miami, Florida >Of my graduating class from PCOM NY I would hazard a guess that over 60% >are in practice at least part time. Many of them teach and write and do >other things related to the field in addition to their practice. I rest my case.....How make the living from a full time practice only?? >I do >think that the percent of individuals in practice has something to do with >where they graduate from, where they live and whether or not they are >willing to move to a more underserved area. > >Marnae David >At 09:43 PM 11/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >At 08:32 PM 11/3/2003, you wrote: > > >Marnae, > > > > > > , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> > > >wrote: > > > > Ken - these statistics are not published and ACAOM does not have the > > right > > > > to release them. They are figures that each school generates and they > > > > become a part of the school's self-study. This is not a public > document. > > > > > > > > Marnae > > > > > > > > At 11:12 PM 11/3/2003 +0000, you wrote: > > > > >Julie, > > > > > > > > > > > > Every accredited school has to submit annual statistics on the > > > > > percentage of > > > > > > their graduates who are practicing, full time, part time, if part > > > time, > > > > > then > > > > > > by choice or not, etc. > > > > > >Thanks. Do you know why? > > > > > >It seems that such information would be > > >of enormous interest to potential students. > > > >Yes to potential students for sure and the rest of us as well ... no? > > > >But, lets say for the sake of an exercise ... the number is greater the > >10%.... would even 25% justify the time and expense of the undertaking .... > >75% of the grads never end up practicing. > > > >First ... I would say 25% is way high... and it still would not justify > >the schooling.. time and costs and all > > > >I was told the future is bright.... and lots of other stories... I do make > >a living .. hard won I might add. Most of the people I went to school with > >are no where to be found. Are more then 10% around...yes .. not a whole > >lot more.... but unlike me many have jobs like flight attendants, RNs LMTs > >etc... far less then 10% just make their living just from the practice of > >Oriental Medicine. > > > > > > >Ken > > > > > >David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > > >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > > >specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of > > >professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Julie, I get it and I'm not trying to insinuate anything about your conduct. i agree with you that the oddity I seem to be looking at is the definition of the material as confidential. No doubt there are concerns that I don't yet grasp that lead to this. Marnae seemed to refer to the concept that someone could be disadvantaged by such information being improperly used. Yet it seems to me that if the particular data we're talking about, i.e., the " success " ratio of graduates of a school, would be damaging if known that traditional market mechanisms more or less demand that it be known and that the damage such data might wreak be allowed to take place. That is how the market engineers quality control. But if no one knows the data, then that mechanism is disabled. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Dear CHA listmembers, I am new to the list. I am also new to the profession. I have read with interest the thread on the schools, and I would like to throw my 2 cents in: RE: Practice Stats for Grads. From my own personal observation (after 25+ years in the business world) I think David's figures are a bit exaggerated but quite close to correct--maybe it's 20% and not 10%. Meaning people making a living NET wage (I define as minimum 36K+ per year for a single person in my area) from practice alone. I am in a major metropolitan area of the USA. When I was interviewing schools before deciding on mine, I was told by one of the schools that only 20% of the graduates went on to actually make a full time practice. That was 1998. Now that I have observed the industry, I think they were correct, at least for my part of the country. But I also think the industry is changing due to accreditation, financial aid and increased acceptance of TCM by Western Med. and I don't believe it's entirely a good change, (IMHO), but that's another thread. I agree that the problem is not with the TCM education part, but rather with the Business aspects of the Education. (I also found Ethics sorely, sorely lacking. Real life Clinical ethics education or discussion was basically non-existent. But that's a different thread.) I feel I am qualified to speak on the subject of business as the owner of successful businesses in a different industry for many years. I don't think TCM folks have to be the " used car salesmen " types I have run into in various Chiropractor offices, but a bit of a realistic idea of how business works, how to present yourself in a professional manner, and how to actually ask for money for your services (yes, even healing services) would have been a good thing. Our business class covered a lot of regulatory issues and not a whole lot else, but then again it was a very short class. Actually trying to design a marketing plan to entice people into your “business” seemed to be almost a shocking idea. I noticed that many of my fellow students seemed to believe ideas like how to find a way to let the world know you were there to provide a service for which you might ask for money was somehow beneath them. I got the impression they thought they would hang out their shingle, maybe put a poster at the local health food store, and then leap out of the way in order not to be trampled by the thundering herd of patients wonder where they had been all those years! OTH, there's a few graduates that hit the ground running and have not looked back. Me and my calculator think they are easily making in excess of 100K their first fiscal year for practice alone. Good for them, but they are not the rule, in my observation. RE Confidentiality of Accreditation Info. If the info about a school and students is not kept confidential there will be no accreditation possible. If I owned schools I would be really worried about keeping any and all internal information confidential. A school is NOT a charity--it's a business and therefore the internal information is valuable and could be very damaging if leaked to the competition. As a student of a school I was very worried about keeping my own information confidential both during my tenure there and now after I have graduated. When they called me up and asked me after I had graduated what I was doing I refused to answer. It's NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS! They said they needed it for accreditation and I offered to write them a letter telling the accreditation folks the same. Now, I do admit I am unusual. I was refusing to give out my SSN# way back in the '70s, but that too is another thread. I have no doubt you will find that W Med schools will have stats that are more accurate and certainly more impressive than TCM schools, but for the tuition money they charge, you can expect they have the resources to have 3rd party research done on their grads and you can equally bet they have entire departments—-plural—-devoted to nothing but marketing. We don’t and I am glad of it. I don’t want to price the entry level of TCM education out of the bounds of reasonable people. (That is one of the reasons that Western Med is so expensive. Where do you suppose they have to look to recoup the costs of their education and start up expenses?) I want to attract students that want to be true healers to TCM; students whose main focus is healing patients, themselves and society; students that want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem--as I aspire to be. I think most people would agree that the profit motive run amok is a large part of what is the matter with W Med as it is practiced today, I would like to see us take a lesson and chart a different course. I believe we can find ways to improve the self esteem and business skills of our healers to the point where they can ask for and expect the income their services are worth without becoming totally profit and number oriented and without losing the focus on the healing aspect of this art which must also be a business. Unfortunately I do not have a solution beyond suggesting more practical business education for our graduates. But I do see this as a problem that we will need to solve individually and collectively and quickly or we will lose our shot at being and maintaining ourselves as a PEER of Western Med rather than simply being co-opted into their power and revenue stream somewhere way below MD. I have not personally reviewed the 100K acupuncture continuing education program of Honora Wolfe and her partner, but I have great hopes that it may be one of the ways to address the missing information for those who have identified this as one of the missing links for themselves. However, I still think we need to convince students that this honorable profession can also provide a reasonable living wage and then give them the tools to accomplish that for themselves. All IMHO, of course. Christina Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Ken, I agree that schools should make their success rate known to all, and this afternoon I posted Yo San's rate of graduates in practice. Let's see if other people on this list who are affiliated with schools will do the same. By the way, someone today questioned the percentage of respondents to this kind of alumni survey. At Yo San, we get about a 50% response rate from our alumni. And I agree that possibly only the most successful practitioners who feel good about their education (or perhaps very bitter) may be the ones responding. I still think the surveys are somewhat useful. > Yet it seems to me that if the particular data > we're talking about, i.e., the " success " ratio > of graduates of a school, would be damaging > if known that traditional market mechanisms > more or less demand that it be known and > that the damage such data might wreak be > allowed to take place. Please keep something in perspective: you are focusing on one tiny part of a school 's entire submission to ACAOM (the " success ratio " ), and you must remember that the totality of the confidential documents consists of hundreds of facts, figures, assessments, recommendations, disclosures, etc., ALL of which are confidential until ACAOM issues its final report, and that is public. Now, I am not going to say another word on this topic. And I know you well enough to know you do not mean anything personal towards me, nor I to you, but I have just had it with this conversation! Julie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 , Christina > Christina, FYI, Wolfe, Allen et al. will be publishing a book on practice management accompanied by a CD-ROM which is heavy on marketing. It should be coming out in Feb. 2004. The title of the book is Points for Profit. Also check out the website: www.100Kacupuncture.com. (I think that's the URL; may be: www.100Kacupuncturist.com.) Bob > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > http://antispam./whatsnewfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 In a message dated 11/5/2003 10:54:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: It is also really questionable whether schools are obligated to teach their students how to run a business. I find most people failing certainly has nothing to do with lack of academic education, though. the best students often fail and the C students thrive. so its not failure because they don't know TCM. BTW, how are you doing? It took me a long time to make decent living myself, but then I am no businessman. Hi I couldn't agree with you more. I am glad someone decided to say this. Success or failure is going to depend on the person and their business sense. Not the edjucation. ;-) I do think it would be a good idea for schools to teach marketing though. Or at least have resources available to point the grads in the direction of a marketeer. Trying to hold schools responsible for the success of the grads is IMHO, silly. It isn't their responsibility. Success falls squarely on the shoulders of the individual. Best Regards, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 David , " David Sontag, DOM " <acudoc@b...> wrote: > > I rest my case.....How make the living from a full time practice only?? > Is that really the question, though. My income from teaching and writing is solely due to my having an acu license. Ithink a more reasonable question is how many grads are making their money from professional TCM related activities. that might include product development for an herb company, for example. this is very different from the fellow I know who is still a car valet part time 3 years after graduation or those who continue to waitress or do IT work. We also need to remember that some folks may not intend to earn all their income from practice. I know people who went to school intending to practice part time and either raise a family or even always planned to continue part time with some other lucrative job. Once you separate out these folks, I think the supposed low success rate will go down quite a bit. And those who do not succeed are hardly the fault of the schools. It is also really questionable whether schools are obligated to teach their students how to run a business. I find most people failing certainly has nothing to do with lack of academic education, though. the best students often fail and the C students thrive. so its not failure because they don't know TCM. BTW, how are you doing? It took me a long time to make decent living myself, but then I am no businessman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2003 Report Share Posted November 5, 2003 , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: - > > A lawsuit? Perhaps just an open request to compile this sort of > information - and more likely it would be addressed to the CCAOM and not to > ACAOM. its hard to believe CCAOM would cough up this data as they represent the vested financial interests of the member schools. but its worth a try. I wasn't really serious about a lawsuit unless the information is withheld despite requests. I had assumed such data had been requested and refused already. my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.