Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 > She (the psychologist) didn't mean the Worseley approach to > acupuncture, but more in the sense that it isn't a proven medicine > and more a kind of a 'superstitious' phenomenon. > > The holy reverence I was refering to is the general attitude of the > general public to the medical establishment. Many MD's keep a large > distance between themselves and the general public. Even the MD's > with the somewhat less glorious positions (company doctors, doctors > employed by insurance companies) feel quite superior, because they > studied medicine. May I remind you of the priest of science who has compassionately agreed to walk alongside us on our stony path, i.e. Emmanuel, who wrote the other day: Again there is a " belief " in the scientific method. I'm going to state here emphatically that this is fundamentally a religious question ... not spiritual ... ethnically religious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 The problem may indeed be how CAM is presenting itself, instead of being 'suppressed' by WM. But I feel there isn't a level playing field and CAM has to overcome a strong bias, and that is not caused by CAM. >>>>A level playing field will only come when CM education will be on par with the excepted medical education by others. Actually we will need more because we must have a good CM as well as biomed education. When we can show that we can play the game at the same level, in terms of the local society rules in which we play, we will see a much more level playing field. We also have to remember that even in eastern countries CM is not anywhere close the level of respect that biomed enjoys. Like it or not we are at an age where research and science rules and will rule for the forcible future. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Even though this is a typo, Alon, sometimes your typos reveal underlying truths. Will the future be 'forced' on us? I think that is more up to us than the prevailing powers-that-be. On Oct 30, 2003, at 11:16 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: >>>>> Like it or not we are at an age where research and science rules >>>>> and will rule for the forcible future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 > >>>>A level playing field will only come when CM education will be on par with the excepted medical education by others. Actually we will need more because we must have a good CM as well as biomed education. When we can show that we can play the game at the same level, in terms of the local society rules in which we play, we will see a much more level playing field. We also have to remember that even in eastern countries CM is not anywhere close the level of respect that biomed enjoys. Like it or not we are at an age where research and science rules and will rule for the forcible future. > Alon Alon, I also think that we should question the assumption that science unequivocably has the social value that you ascribe to it. There's the dialectical opposite - people are afraid of science, wary of it, mistrustful. That's one of the important points Unschuld makes in accounting for its popularity in the modern West. Political/power/commercial considerations are significant, but surely we should be concerned to do what we feel is right? I get the feeling that you personally feel that science has a lot to offer CM. The view contrary to this is that there is a value in the CM tradition that relates to its aspects that are not 'scientific' in the narrow, modern sense, and that the process of validation by science will jeopardise that tradition. In any case, there are plenty of doctors who I think are quite eager to submit at least acupuncture (possibly not CHM) to scientific appraisal, and no doubt, they'll build up a bigger and bigger 'knowledge base' that has the full stamp of scientific approval. We'll have every right to practice according to that methodology - at least in the UK, we will. There may even be some more traditional CM that gets scientific certification. Best wishes, Wainwright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 Do you currently teach your students, at least inform them, that no such opportunity awaits? >>>I know of schools that tell the students and prospective students that they can make 6 figure out of school alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 I think you've hit the nail on the head with this one, Ken. I am one for unearthing these 'gems' and sharing them with students, and not only are they practical medical suggestions, they are also highly inspirational. For me, they are the crux of teaching and studying the subject of Chinese medicine. How can we start researching what we've barely uncovered? There's a lot of 'data mining' to be done first. On Oct 30, 2003, at 3:21 PM, kenrose2008 wrote: > > I think there is a whole universe full of > enormously useful data in the archives of > traditional medical lore. What a bitter > shame that it is not being made available > to students who reach out for it, by name > at least, when they enroll in training > programs. > > We now start to have a more comprehensive > understanding of the process by which the > current efforts in the PRC to develop > and market TCM have supplanted various > aspects and dimensions of the traditional > lore with a highly Westernized/scientized > approach. > > We must develop the same kind of understanding > of how our own adaptations and acculturations > of the subject have further displaced the > enormous diversity and richness of the > various medical traditions with a relatively > small set of highly idiosyncratic views of > the subject. > > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 , Ken Rose > > I think there is a whole universe full of > > enormously useful data in the archives of > > traditional medical lore. What a bitter > > shame that it is not being made available > > to students who reach out for it, by name > > at least, when they enroll in training > > programs. First of all, I don't doubt that there is a buried treasure of literature still untranslated. In fact, that's why I taught myself some Chinese in order to be able to read what other herbal and acupuncture formulas were available; and have several hundred Chinese books on my selves. But if, as you say, student are " reaching out " for this material why haven't they bought the books available? > > We now start to have a more comprehensive > > understanding of the process by which the > > current efforts in the PRC to develop > > and market TCM have supplanted various > > aspects and dimensions of the traditional > > lore with a highly Westernized/scientized > > approach. Why does the PRC with full access to CM literature turn to science as its first response, ignoring traditional medicine in a crisis? For example, the CM response to the SARS crisis was only anecdotal; the flurry of activity turned out to be the same story repeated in all the Western publications. If we're only 6 degrees from Kevin Bacon, why havn't more details about the CM response to SARS been reported by Western practitioners in China? What preparations are CM practitioners implementing for the immanent SARS return? > > We must develop the same kind of understanding > > of how our own adaptations and acculturations > > of the subject have further displaced the > > enormous diversity and richness of the > > various medical traditions with a relatively > > small set of highly idiosyncratic views of > > the subject. >>> How could our culture adapt to the enormous diversity of 2500 years of CM literature in less than 30? Why do you see it as a personal failure of the early writers instead of an inherent historical problem of the novelty of the material and the growth cycle of a new subject matter in a completely different culture? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 At 10:44 AM +0000 10/31/03, James Ramholz wrote: > > > We must develop the same kind of understanding >> > of how our own adaptations and acculturations >> > of the subject have further displaced the >> > enormous diversity and richness of the >> > various medical traditions with a relatively >> > small set of highly idiosyncratic views of >> > the subject. >>> > >How could our culture adapt to the enormous diversity of 2500 years >of CM literature in less than 30? Why do you see it as a personal >failure of the early writers instead of an inherent historical >problem of the novelty of the material and the growth cycle of a new >subject matter in a completely different culture? -- Ken, In addition to James's questions, which I agree with, when I look at say, Formulas & Strategies, I see a rich diversity of ideas represented by formulas by many different authors based on different ideas during different eras. In addition to the commentaries in F & S, there are translations of original texts that explore some of these ideas in greater depth. Beyond F & S there is an even wider diversity in the available literature, even in English. When it comes to 'adaptations and acculturations of the subject', ours is obviously different from the current Chinese experience, and from the experience of practitioners who were part of 'enormous diversity and richness of the various medical traditions'. But consider the experience of any one of those practitioners. Would not most of them as individuals have been trained in a single tradition, a single 'highly idiosyncratic view of the subject'. The richness of the tradition is made up of many hundreds, thousands, or millions of highly idiosyncratic practitioners, not millions of practitioners with hugely diverse views of the subject. Could we not say that our current 'small set' is no less diverse than that of most practitioners in enormous diversity? Understanding our adaptations and acculturations is probably a good thing, but are you saying that we, as non-Chinese, should feel more compelled to explore these issues that the Chinese themselves have ever done? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 > For example, the CM response to the SARS crisis was only anecdotal; > the flurry of activity turned out to be the same story repeated in > all the Western publications. If we're only 6 degrees from Kevin > Bacon, why havn't more details about the CM response to SARS been > reported by Western practitioners in China? What preparations are CM > practitioners implementing for the immanent SARS return? Jim, In my experience, your characterization is incorrect. The recent Chinese medical journals from the PRC are full of articles by numerous different practitioners on SARS. Some issues of some journals have been almost dedicated to this single issue. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " wrote: > In my experience, your characterization is incorrect. The recent > Chinese medical journals from the PRC are full of articles by numerous different practitioners on SARS. Some issues of some journals have been almost dedicated to this single issue. >>> Bob: Can you survey some of them before the next outbreak here so we can possibly see if there are successful theories, cases, and protocols? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " wrote: > Jim, > > In my experience, your characterization is incorrect. The recent > Chinese medical journals from the PRC are full of articles by numerous different practitioners on SARS. Some issues of some journals have been almost dedicated to this single issue.>>> Bob: I was thinking about only locally and in English. But you are correct in thinking globally. Wouldn't it be an irony if SARS is treated effectively in the US by CM and receives notariety for it? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 For example, the CM response to the SARS crisis was only anecdotal; the flurry of activity turned out to be the same story repeated in all the Western publications. If we're only 6 degrees from Kevin Bacon, why havn't more details about the CM response to SARS been reported by Western practitioners in China? What preparations are CM practitioners implementing for the immanent SARS return? >>>>>In Taiwan the response is by far mostly WM. While many people also took herbs for prevention and companies made products to burn (ie " sterilize the air " ) the response is really in the hands of WM. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 > > Mr. Bob Damone teaches that thick, sticky difficult to expectorate > WHITE > > phlegm is still heat-phlegm. Phlegm need not be yellow for heat to > be > > involved. On the other hand, cold phlegm is always loose and > watery, clear or > > white, never either yellow or sticky. Many students had not heard > this which > > Mr. Damone says is very evident in all his reading on the subject > in chinese > > texts. To elaborate on this topic, I just translated a case study and the patient had chonic bronchitis and pulmonary emphasema with WHITE GLUE like phlegm. Here are the herbs : Ban xia 9, hou po 4.5, fu ling 12, su zi 9, laifuzi9, tinglizi9, ma huáng4.5, xing ren 9, gan cao 4.5. You decide on the Dx.... - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 Jim I think AAOM meeting is in las Vegas next year. We should probably have about 9 patients to get some numbers. Who else do you think should participate alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 I think this may be reasonable for orthopedics, but in a straight TCM class it makes no sense to leave qi out of the discussion. >>>I disagree if you make one always state all the criteria for one's statements than less mistakes in communication and increased rigor is the result alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 To elaborate on this topic, I just translated a case study and the patient had chonic bronchitis and pulmonary emphasema with WHITE GLUE like phlegm. Here are the herbs : Ban xia 9, hou po 4.5, fu ling 12, su zi 9, laifuzi9, tinglizi9, ma huáng4.5, xing ren 9, gan cao 4.5. You decide on the Dx.... >>>>>Jason it could also be green and still used similar Rx depending on other symptoms signs alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 That would be true if you had a clear equivalent for qi. That doesn't exist in English. Imagine a class discussion with defense qi, construction qi, or source qi. What are you going to use instead? On Nov 2, 2003, at 8:26 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: >>> I disagree if you make one always state all the criteria for one's >>> statements than less mistakes in communication and increased rigor >>> is the result alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2003 Report Share Posted November 2, 2003 , " Alon Marcus " wrote: > Jim I think AAOM meeting is in las Vegas next year. We should probably have about 9 patients to get some numbers. Who else do you think should participate >>> alon: Leon Hammer or one of the practitioners from the Shen lineage are the only major players that I can think of offhand; but I'm sure there may be others. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 , " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > , " Alon Marcus " wrote: > > Jim I think AAOM meeting is in las Vegas next year. We should > probably have about 9 patients to get some numbers. Who else do you > think should participate >>> > > > > alon: > > Leon Hammer or one of the practitioners from the Shen lineage are > the only major players that I can think of offhand; but I'm sure > there may be others. >>> Some further thoughts: If we do the patients blind, each practitioner will need an hour per patient. We should also have a half day set up so that attendees can learn some of the major features of each pulse system and practice treatments using it themselves. Then, at the end, a panel to discuss why some features are found in common and why there are differences. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Imagine a class discussion with defense qi, construction qi, or source qi. What are you going to use instead? >>>The definitions of course. One would have to state exactly what one means with defense qi at a particular point. Defense qi can mean too many things and then become vague\ alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Leon Hammer or one of the practitioners from the Shen lineage are the only major players that I can think of offhand; but I'm sure there may be others. >>>I thinks Flaws teaches pulse taking as well. Will can let us know about Leon's practitioners alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Some further thoughts: If we do the patients blind, each practitioner will need an hour per patient. We should also have a half day set up so that attendees can learn some of the major features of each pulse system and practice treatments using it themselves. Then, at the end, a panel to discuss why some features are found in common and why there are differences. >>>>I would hope we can get at least 1/2 day or may be a full day on this from AAOM Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 True, but the idea is that one would been hard pressed not to use 'qi' when discussing these concepts. Neither would these concepts be 'vague' if one used the term 'qi'. In fact, the meanings would be obscured without 'qi'. On Nov 3, 2003, at 7:07 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Imagine a class discussion with defense qi, construction qi, or source > qi. What are you going to use instead? >>>> The definitions of course. One would have to state exactly what one >>>> means with defense qi at a particular point. Defense qi can mean >>>> too many things and then become vague\ > alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 - " " <zrosenbe Monday, November 03, 2003 3:38 PM Re: Re: More " the Web " > True, but the idea is that one would been hard pressed not to use 'qi' > when discussing these concepts. Neither would these concepts be > 'vague' if one used the term 'qi'. In fact, the meanings would be > obscured without 'qi'. > > > On Nov 3, 2003, at 7:07 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > Imagine a class discussion with defense qi, construction qi, or source > > qi. What are you going to use instead? > >>>> The definitions of course. One would have to state exactly what one > >>>> means with defense qi at a particular point. Defense qi can mean > >>>> too many things and then become vague\ > > alon May I remind people of the difficulty in defining any word in detail, for example 'force', 'space', 'time' etc. in physics. Given that there words have different meanings in different theories in physics, such as Einstein's and Newton's theories of gravitation, would we ask physicists to refrain from using these terms, and instead request an entire discourse on what is meant by each term each time it is used? Of course not. Disciplines are practical in nature, and terms are a shorthand for a much more complex web of ideas. And why should things be different for CM? Wainwright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2003 Report Share Posted November 3, 2003 Z'ev, First of all, as far as modern texts go, Jiao is an exception. Most modern texts are not well footnoted (many of these footnotes are added by the translators). I was referring quite specifically to textbooks used in the schools. As I believe you know, there is a standard set of textbooks used by almost every school of CM with very little variance from this. Syllabi are not generally distributed, but when they are, they certainly do not look like the ones that we have with several texts, required, recommended etc. First year students are coming right out of a very structured high school curriculum and entering into a very structured college curriculum. Yes, these standard textbooks are peppered with quotations from the classics, but most students do not actually go out and read them until later. As a comparison, the Diagnosis textbook used by college of CM in China is about 1/3 the length of Deng. So, do I think that we have a better quality/variety? I certainly think that we a variety - some quite divergent from those used in China, other (like Fundamentals) much closer. But the mere fact that we can refer students to texts like Web, BH & E, Larre & Rochat, and that we do make those referrals makes our education very very different from what is occuring in China. Remember also that our students are CHOOSING to be in colleges of CM (whether they regret it afterwards or not) while in China there is much less choice involved. Marnae At 01:29 PM 11/2/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Marnae, > This is an interesting and provocative response, in that I've never >heard that we have a better quality and variety of English language >textbooks than Chinese textbooks. While critical skills may be >developed in our patients (perhaps a cultural phenomena; Ken or Jason >Robertson, how are Chinese students' critical skills in their >classrooms?), from what I've seen of the Chinese textbooks, it is an >easy matter to reference other texts, such as classical sources >compared to our situation in the West. This is what I like so much >about books like Jiao Shu-de's " Ten Lectures on Medicinals " . Every new >term is footnoted, and concepts are explained. > > >On Nov 2, 2003, at 12:57 PM, Marnae Ergil wrote: > > > Ken - > > > > As Julie pointed out, the Web is not a primary text for her class, it > > is > > not an " authoritative sole required source " . I have to say that I > > believe > > that the kind of literature that our students get exposed to by their > > teachers, on syllabi handed out in class, far exceeds the literature > > that > > student of CM in China are exposed to. Given the fairly standard > > curriculum set of 32 textbooks that is used throughout China I think > > that > > the variety of things that we expose our students to, even if some of > > it is > > " wrong " or has errors, leads to a better thinking process and a better > > ability to critique texts than the more formalized, standardized system > > used in China. > > > > Marnae > > > > At 03:10 PM 11/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Except that the web is no standard at all. can anyone on this > >> list who teaches > >>> at an accredited TCM school tell me if this book is used as an > >> authoritative sole > >>> required source in any class. I think the answer is no. This > >> book has no > >>> influence at all on current academic curriculum at TCM > >> colleges. Whether as > >>> Bob Felt suggests it wields influence at PBS and Harvard is a > >> question I cannot > >>> answer. The source that wields true influence is Giovanni M.'s > >> work as well as > >>> Bensky. > >> > >> I don't disagree with your relative > >> valuation of these three authors. > >> But I think you overstate the situation > >> when you say that Web has no influence > >> on current academic curriculum. > >> > >> Julie Chambers says reads the > >> book four times a year and uses it > >> as a basic text in her basic theory > >> course. Basic theory matters, and initial > >> impressions are often devilishly hard > >> to ferret out. > >> > >> I would be very interested in finding out > >> precisely how extensive the influence of > >> all these authors remains. I suspect that > >> with the advent of more comprehensive > >> materials, not to mention the slow but > >> steady development of a cohort of individuals > >> who do have access to the bulk of the > >> available literature, the influence of most > >> of the early writers will continue to diminish. > >> > >> How do you think we could actually determine > >> such a thing? > >> > >> Ken > >> > >> > >> > >> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > >> healthcare > >> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics > >> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of > >> professional services, including board approved online continuing > >> education. > >> > >> > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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