More the Web

[Guest guest]

At 02:53 PM 11/2/2003 -0600, you wrote:

>ANd schools do survey their alumni every 3 - 5 years in order to retain

>their accreditation. What would be most interesting to me is to know what

>schools are producing the largest # of students who are remaining in the

>profession.

> >>>>I wander what % actually fill out the questioners, i never have

>alon

 

 

Why not?

 

Marnae

 

>

[Guest guest]

True, but the idea is that one would been hard pressed not to use 'qi'

when discussing these concepts. Neither would these concepts be

'vague' if one used the term 'qi'. In fact, the meanings would be

obscured without 'qi'.

 

>>>We will have to agree to disagree here.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Of course not. Disciplines are practical in nature, and terms are a

shorthand for a much more complex web of ideas. And why should things

be different for CM?

 

>>>I am not saying the discipline must restrain but it is good in a class

format. Just try it and see what happens

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I was at the Tianjin College of CM for a year. I completed the first year

of coursework in the Chinese student's program and did interviews with

students, faculty and administrators at all levels. I was there primarily

as an anthropologist but also because I was studying Chinese medicine.

 

Marnae

 

At 05:14 PM 11/2/2003 -0600, you wrote:

>As Julie pointed out, the Web is not a primary text for her class, it is

>not an " authoritative sole required source " . I have to say that I believe

>that the kind of literature that our students get exposed to by their

>teachers, on syllabi handed out in class, far exceeds the literature that

>student of CM in China are exposed to. Given the fairly standard

>curriculum set of 32 textbooks that is used throughout China I think that

>the variety of things that we expose our students to, even if some of it is

> " wrong " or has errors, leads to a better thinking process and a better

>ability to critique texts than the more formalized, standardized system

>used in China.

>

> >>>Very interesting. Marnae just out of curiosity, were did you work in

> china? ie which CM school

>Alon

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 08:09 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> The same teacher also said that 'pathogenic dampness' (I assume

> phlegm-rheum) could be 'recycled' as healthy body fluids.

>

>>>> By the way i have heard the same about the use of transformation

>>>> methods in china, same with blood-stasis

 

This was what I have thought for a few years now, when you look at

phlegm as substantial fire (i.e. a unique etiology, namely heat causing

the phlegm) if you remove the heat, the phlegm can turn back into yin.

 

As an example, heat gets into the lungs and damages the Yin. The Yin

thickens and becomes phlegm. Using something like Chuan Bei Mu which

clears heat and moisturizes basically melts the phlegm back into Yin.

It is just a theory for me at this point, but this is essentially how I

think of Chuan Bei Mu's action.

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

-Adlai Stevenson

[Guest guest]

, al stone wrote:

> As an example, heat gets into the lungs and damages the Yin. The

Yin thickens and becomes phlegm. Using something like Chuan Bei Mu

which clears heat and moisturizes basically melts the phlegm back

into Yin.

> It is just a theory for me at this point, but this is essentially

how I think of Chuan Bei Mu's action. >>>

 

 

Al:

 

While we can certainly see the dampness and/or phlegm disappear in

the pulse, it's difficult to say if it gets recycled into usable yin

fluids or simply dispersed and eliminated.

 

How can this theory be tested?

 

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

For me, the value of the theory is in its ability to give me a more

familiar relationship with the herb. I just know when to use it when I

can marry its actions to the indications via the theory involved.

 

So, I don't really need to prove it, beyond of course the clinical

success.

 

Then again if you wanted to test this, the question would be about

measuring surfactant in the Lungs. I don't know how that would be done,

perhaps the moisture in the breath? I don't know, but this substantial

fire in the Lungs always reminded me of surfactant/Yin becoming damaged

and turning into phlegm.

 

On Monday, November 3, 2003, at 01:02 PM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> Al:

>

> While we can certainly see the dampness and/or phlegm disappear in

> the pulse, it's difficult to say if it gets recycled into usable yin

> fluids or simply dispersed and eliminated.

>

> How can this theory be tested?

>

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Why not?

>>>I guess just time

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I was at the Tianjin College of CM for a year. I completed the first year

of coursework in the Chinese student's program and did interviews with

students, faculty and administrators at all levels. I was there primarily

as an anthropologist but also because I was studying Chinese medicine.

 

>>>>Hows Tianjin i never spoke to somebody that studied there. How is the city

for foreigners

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wainwright wrote: May I remind people of the difficulty in defining any word in

detail, for example 'force', 'space', 'time' etc. in physics. Given that there

words have different meanings in different theories in physics, such as

Einstein's and Newton's theories of gravitation, would we ask physicists to

refrain from using these terms, and instead request an entire discourse on what

is meant by each term each time it is used?

 

Of course not. Disciplines are practical in nature, and terms are a shorthand

for a much more complex web of ideas. And why should things be different for CM?

 

Wainwright

 

Wainwright,

 

Most scientists would speak in a shorthand of what I call " lab grunts " when

speaking amongst themselves. When teaching in a classroom they would use

entirely standard terminology and define whether they meant a Newtonian or a

quantum theory perspective. It would be unwieldy in either a lab setting or a

classroom setting to have to use full blown definitions every time you refer to

something.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

I f you look at the meaning of the term hua4 (transform) it says: Change,

usually of a gentle or dradual nature, in relative contrast to

transmutation, sudden or major change. Transformation implies profressive

(productive) and regressive (destructive) change and in the former case is

frequently rendered as formation. Hence, fire formation refers to the

natural transformation of evils or yang qi into fire whereas transforming

phlegm refers to a method of treatment to eliminate phlegm (i.e. regressive

change). (Dictionary, pg 621).

 

The idea here is that one aspect of transformation is indeed about breaking

down substances (phlegm, food, etc) gradually, and in shuch a way as they

can be more easily eliminated or re-absorbed into the body.

 

Marnae

 

At 12:34 PM 11/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:

 

>On Sunday, November 2, 2003, at 08:09 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> > The same teacher also said that 'pathogenic dampness' (I assume

> > phlegm-rheum) could be 'recycled' as healthy body fluids.

> >

> >>>> By the way i have heard the same about the use of transformation

> >>>> methods in china, same with blood-stasis

>

>This was what I have thought for a few years now, when you look at

>phlegm as substantial fire (i.e. a unique etiology, namely heat causing

>the phlegm) if you remove the heat, the phlegm can turn back into yin.

>

>As an example, heat gets into the lungs and damages the Yin. The Yin

>thickens and becomes phlegm. Using something like Chuan Bei Mu which

>clears heat and moisturizes basically melts the phlegm back into Yin.

>It is just a theory for me at this point, but this is essentially how I

>think of Chuan Bei Mu's action.

>

>--

>

>Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>-Adlai Stevenson

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In general I did not like it. It is not a very interesting city and when I

was there the program for foreigners was not very good - in fact, pretty

abysmal. I have not been back in several years and I have heard that it

has improved, but it is not a place that I generally recommend to people.

 

Marnae

 

At 02:53 PM 11/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>I was at the Tianjin College of CM for a year. I completed the first year

>of coursework in the Chinese student's program and did interviews with

>students, faculty and administrators at all levels. I was there primarily

>as an anthropologist but also because I was studying Chinese medicine.

>

> >>>>Hows Tianjin i never spoke to somebody that studied there. How is the

> city for foreigners

>Alon

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken Rose:

> > > I think there is a whole universe full of

> > > enormously useful data in the archives of

> > > traditional medical lore. What a bitter

> > > shame that it is not being made available

> > > to students who reach out for it, by name

> > > at least, when they enroll in training

> > > programs.

 

Marco:

 

That is one of the problematics maybe people in the past have not

necessarily

reached out for " Chinese medicine "

Taking Guatemala as an example I am simply constantly confused one-way or

another as to what different sectors and different people actually want with

regard to Chinese medicine?

 

I think Emmanuel mention that the body is a habit and agreed with such an

eye opening notion. I have quite a few people coming and on one hand saying

they are interested in Chinese medicine and on another hand refuse to

transform or at least entertain the possibility that what is in a book may

or may not be less or more representive of some form of Chinese medicine.

 

Also I am given the impression that when one is less allowed to account for

what Chinese medicine is i.e. what one wants it to be. as opposes to aiming

to " see " what China and other Asian countries has to say both in theory and

experience... about TEAM and or Chinese medicine quite a few people drop the

intres like a hot potato...

 

So how to minimise the demand of the situation?

 

The situation in early days USA with regard to Chinese medicine in deed

where and is different from today's USA and Guatemala is maybe a bit where

USA

was in 50-60-early 70's with regard to Chinese medicine (I have no real

idea...)

 

Here in Guatemala (and I am not saying this is what happen in USA) there are

some people whom are imparting so call acupuncture and it is a tragedy...

Also one Cuban doctor is imparting acupuncture and it is tragic but less

so...

 

Now I have to look for the sedation points and imulogical points and what

nots...

 

BUT that is what people seam to what???

 

If I go into that for me it would be fairly logical to study Chinese

medicine as close to the sources as possible before giving our elaborations

(as opposed to our opinions).

 

BUT

 

I actually do not speak Chinese, although my CM and TEAM knowing is poor in

comparison with people on this list it is " fairly high " compare to the

exciting knowledge base here in Guatemala.

 

Hence I thought it over and over and will start a course where for the first

time there will be some supervision and hopefully we the class will be able

to develop a small glossary with Spanish terms pegged onto Chinese and

English terms...

 

BUT

 

I do not speak Chinese nor do I actually speak Spanish very well, hence it

is

recipe for disaster but still more " honest " then what is and has been up to

now (I am talking about the City and not the great work that GUAMAP seam to

do although have no idea why doc and I have no contact???? but such is

life).

 

HENCE

 

I take all the " web " postings deadly seriously since it touches upon the

errors of our ways but maybe still not realistically as to why? we live in

society after all and yes we also make it to greater or lesser extent.

 

Now there is a alarming difference with the situation here in Guatemala is

that we actually do not have a Bensky and a Kaptcuk or now also another

people like them say Ken Ray and Jim and the list goes on and on... to get

the ball rolling...

 

Thus I am thinking:

 

How many people speak Spanish on this list?

 

Well lets hope there are a few (which I suspect there are) " we " should maybe

create a list server where one main object is to develop a bilingual

(trilingual) word list.

 

Those whom are imparting Chinese medicine in Spanish could hook up on the

net and say for example:

 

 

Pattern Bian - Patron? (personally I feel syndrome changes the fluides of

meaning as opposed to the word pattern.

 

But Bian also means evidence? thus a describes Patron based en evidence

(que pude ser acumulida en varias formas y intepretatdas en various formas,

I told you my Spanish is very poor)

 

Cold Damange - Shang Han - daño por frio???

 

On Cold damage - Shang Han Lun - Sobre daño por frio? or tratado de danño

por frio??? or Tradoado sobre daño por frio???

 

 

 

This book is currently translated as Tratado de cripatología (although my

language skills are what would want cause Bob Felt to burn, burn, burn

everything, this translation of shang han lun is to me highly problematic)

 

 

 

Jim:

> First of all, I don't doubt that there is a buried treasure of

> literature still untranslated. In fact, that's why I taught myself

> some Chinese in order to be able to read what other herbal and

> acupuncture formulas were available; and have several hundred

> Chinese books on my selves. But if, as you say, student

> are " reaching out " for this material why haven't they bought the

> books available?

 

Marco:

 

I am trying best as I can to buy and obtain books... and Jim I appreciate

your help still unfortunately unable to hear the cd but all in due

time..(what

is worst the books in the Spanish language at least the once I have seen are

a nightmare)

 

 

Ken:

> > > We must develop the same kind of understanding

> > > of how our own adaptations and acculturations

> > > of the subject have further displaced the

> > > enormous diversity and richness of the

> > > various medical traditions with a relatively

> > > small set of highly idiosyncratic views of

> > > the subject. >>>

 

Marco:

 

How can we in Guatemala and the Spanish speaking world avoid and or at least

try to minimise the above?

 

Hence:

 

I THINK WE SPANISH SPEAKING ASPIRANTS NEED TO GET TOGETHER ON THE INTERNET.

 

 

Create a list highly dedicated to developing Spanish words " equivalences " of

Chinese and English terms if possible...

 

Once the class is going here I will try to see which words where used to

denote or connote say:

 

Mussitation (a very sweet term not sure devised by Wiseman and Feng but

either way one of my favourite)

 

mussitation - Spanish ??? - mussitation - Character - Zheng Sheng...

 

page 403 PDCM

 

 

The act of mumbling to one self haltingly and with frequent repetitions...

 

Obviously it would be to complicated at this stage having a collective

translating the whole dictionary due to copy rights and what ever (I know

where my money would be denotated...)

 

However a list would be great then paradigm could incorporate it in a future

versions and Spanish speaking people would have better base for writing

more advance books on Chinese medicine and some might even decide to

translate the PDCM...

 

Just me doing mussitation...

Marco