Western oriental medical education-what needs to be done

[Guest guest]

, yehuda l frischman

<@j...> wrote:

Dr Jiang pointed

> out that different terms represent subtle differences in the

therapeutic

> process. He gave the examples of zi 1, yang 3, bu 3, zhuang 4,

jian 4

> and yi 4, all having to do with tonification, and all subtly

different.

 

 

I would like to hear the specifics that Dr jiang told you...

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> <<<<<<Hopefully this was part of the oral explanation you got, but

it is a definite argument for explain terms. I liked the way 10

lectures did it. It was integrated within the text so that one was

not distracted from reading

> alon

>

 

This seems to be a common occurance in the chinese... They explain

there terms often as the go along, even simple things like

what 'smooth the liver' means.. I like it... there are many things,

like this, that are cut out of many english texts...

 

-

[Guest guest]

Sure:

 

Zi 1 is a term used when nourishing yin deficiency (vacuity as you will).

Yang 3 inplies a more moistening and is used to enrich blood which is

deficient. Bu 3 is a general term used when tonifying qi, jing, yang or

yin. Zhuang 4 is for fortifying yang. Jian 4 referring specifically to

strenthening the function of pi (spleen), including reducing dampness,

moving food acumulation, and generally improving T & T. Yi 4, augment

or boostis a term usually referring to the shen (kidney) function

 

Yehuda.

Mon, 03 Nov 2003 02:30:08 -0000 " " <

writes:

> , yehuda l frischman

> <@j...> wrote:

> Dr Jiang pointed

> > out that different terms represent subtle differences in the

> therapeutic

> > process. He gave the examples of zi 1, yang 3, bu 3, zhuang 4,

> jian 4

> > and yi 4, all having to do with tonification, and all subtly

> different.

>

>

> I would like to hear the specifics that Dr jiang told you...

>

> -

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe another idea would be to contact Dan Bensky and suggest that he

expand his glossary and cross reference of actions in the next editions

of the Materia Medica and Formulas and Strategies, .

 

Just thinking out loud....

 

Yehuda

 

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[Guest guest]

I don't agree. I believe that by acquiring fundamental and subtle

medical vocab early on, maybe not the first year, but certainly by the

second, and by gradually building on that vocabulary, one is much better

equipped to understand the nuances in medical literature,

and by inference undertand what the author really meant to say, perhaps

something specific and not implicit in a synonymous term

>>>Does it matter if a term is called Yang or sigar?

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

This seems to be a common occurance in the chinese... They explain

there terms often as the go along, even simple things like

what 'smooth the liver' means.. I like it... there are many things,

like this, that are cut out of many english texts...

 

>>>They were not cut out when CS Cheung did his translations in our classes,

although a dictionary like Wiseman's does make things much easier. The problem

is that the same term may be used quite differently in several texts and by

different Dr

alon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jian 4 referring specifically to

strenthening the function of pi (spleen), including reducing dampness,

moving food acumulation, and generally improving T & T.

>>>And saying Jian is clearer than the description?

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't think that is so much the case in Chinese.

 

 

On Nov 2, 2003, at 8:32 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>>>> They were not cut out when CS Cheung did his translations in our

>>>> classes, although a dictionary like Wiseman's does make things much

>>>> easier. The problem is that the same term may be used quite

>>>> differently in several texts and by different Dr

[Guest guest]

I don't think that is so much the case in Chinese.

>>>>Not according to many i have talked to and i think Dan as well and that is

why he does not like a standardized lingo. Also if you look at the formulas that

are often used with these terms in different texts you see that in Chinese they

are not as standard as you might think.

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda -

 

Some schools do. We have a required Chinese medical terminology course in

the 1st term that is designed to link concepts with the Fundamental Theory

and Intro to herbs classes. This linking continued throughout the program

as the majority of our faculty are either Chinese or speak Chinese.

 

Marnae

 

At 02:36 PM 11/2/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>Ken,

>

>I agree. I think that you can't through out the baby with the bath

>water. As my studies are proceeding, I encourage my professors to

>incorporate more and more Chinese medical terminology in describing

>syndromes, etiology, differentiation and treatment. As we've said

>before, the medicine we practice is most definitely a hybrid of TCM and

>western rationalism. By using the actual Chinese medical terms, in their

>appropriate context, this synthesis becomes more harmonious. Isn't that

>really what will make for better practitioners: REALLY understanding what

>the terms mean, without thinking about the English translation, and once

>we have integrated the terminology into our thought process, to use our

>western analytical tradition to give us a broader understanding.

>

>In my formula writing class last week, my mentor, Jiang Ji, from Nan

>Jing, clarified a presentation that had been bothering me since my first

>basic herb class: So many different terms are used to describe what from

>a western perspective seem to be identical phenomena. Dr Jiang pointed

>out that different terms represent subtle differences in the therapeutic

>process. He gave the examples of zi 1, yang 3, bu 3, zhuang 4, jian 4

>and yi 4, all having to do with tonification, and all subtly different.

>Why teachers, don't you teach your students early on the correct

>terminology, for example why even refer to something so basic as anything

>but xue?

>

>Bottom line, I think that if students are taught to think in Medical

>Chinese, from the beginning, automatically, the level of education and

>scholarship will grow, and advanced students will have a much easier time

>learning classics in the original language.

>

>BTW, I unfortunately won't be able to come to PCOM this week--midterms.

>Next year for sure!

>

>Yehuda

>

>______________

>The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!

>Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!

>Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Julie -

 

The best source is Wiseman's Dictionary. It has very clear definitions for

each of the terms, what substance they refer to etc. I use these

definitions in all of my classes and make sure that students have access to

them. Of course, we require that students buy the dictionary in their

first term.

 

Marnae

 

At 05:38 PM 11/2/2003 -0700, you wrote:

> > >>>Did you past teachers used notifying for all? no nourishing for

>example. And if one does not make the connection with the actual differences

>in the herbs does it makes a different. This comes out of herbal knowledge

>as far as i am concerned. Its the principles of why nourish one situation

>and tonify another that are important knowing different words such as zi,

>yang bu etc does not help me.

> > alon

>

>Julie replies:

>

>Alon, do you mean " tonifying " and not " notifying " ?

>

>In my herbal teaching, I try to make a distinction among such terms as

>nourish, tonify, augment, benefit, etc. because I know there must be

>differences. What source, though, is the most useful? Looking in the

>Dictionary of Traditional published by Beijing Medical

>College is next to useless for me. It is not really a dictionary in that you

>cannot look up a term alphabetically.

>

>When Bensky states that an herb " augments " the yin, what does that mean?

>Should I look up " augment " in Webster's, where I will find that it means " to

>make greater, more numerous, larger, more intense " ? Bensky doesn't say what

>he means by " augment " , and the term is not in his glossary. The term

> " augment " does not appear in Wiseman's Practical Dictionary, and even if it

>did, how would I know that the Chinese term associated with " augment " is

>what Bensky was translating when he said " augment " ?

>

>I can hear Ken saying, " This is why practitioners need to read Chinese, " but

>even if I could, whose translation would truly tell me what the Chinese term

>Bensky used for " augment " REALLY means?

>

>It is perplexing.

>

>Julie

>

>

>

>

>

>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

>practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

>specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

>professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The best source is Wiseman's Dictionary. It has very clear definitions for

each of the terms, what substance they refer to etc. I use these

definitions in all of my classes and make sure that students have access to

them. Of course, we require that students buy the dictionary in their

first term.

>>>It is a great book

alon