Clarification on spagyrics/calcination and tinctures 4

[Guest guest]

Thank you for these detailed descriptions. Could you please say more about

the protocols you refer to below?

 

Pat

 

 

 

Another interesting aspect of spagyrics is the analytical protocols to

determine the elemental (ie how much and what proportion of " earth " ,

" water " , " air " , " fire " ) there is in a medicinal plant.

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Wainwright,

 

Interesting question. It depends on the what herb and what operation

(and the purpose thereof) is conducted. Can you be a little more

specific ?

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

, " wainwrightchurchill "

<w.churchill_1-@t...> wrote:

> Wow!

>

> Thanks for your emails.

>

> Out of interest, what effects, in CM terms, do you think making a

> spagyric preparation might have for Chinese herbs, if it's possible to

> say?

>

>

>

> Wainwright

>

> -

> " busyalchimiste " <busyalchimiste@h...>

>

> Friday, October 31, 2003 8:25 PM

> Clarification on spagyrics/calcination and tinctures 4

>

>

> > The previous post is an example of ONE spagyric technique. There are

> > thousands from many traditions.

[Guest guest]

> Hi Wainwright,

>

> Interesting question. It depends on the what herb and what operation

> (and the purpose thereof) is conducted. Can you be a little more

> specific ?

>

> Cheers,

>

> Dr. G.

 

Not being acquainted with making spagyric preparations at all, I don't

know the variables to ask about. However, I can think of two specific

questions:

 

1) Does making a spagyric preparation generally change the qi of herbs

in a regular and predictable manner, e.g. making them hotter, colder,

making them more ascending, easier to digest, dispersing, astringent,

entering the qi or blood level more - etc.

 

2) How about the effects for specific herbs - for example Ginseng?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Wainwright

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat,

 

Basically these protocols involve submitting the dried and fresh plant

material to element specific extraction techniques (sublimation,

distillation, extraction, calcination, coagulation etc.) in

specialized apparatus with specialized menstuums. The techniques used

can be complex. I'll try and give you a few examples.

 

Let's take Bo He (mint). Let us steam distll it and oversimplefy. What

people refer to as " essential oil " in the case of mint generally can

be called by certain schools " volatile Sulphur " . But to answer your

question, the essential oil is representative of the Air and Fire in

Bo He. The essential oil is further worked by sublimation and

circulation to separate it into Air and Fire.

 

Now that's Mint. It's worked that way because of it's classification

and it's signature.

 

Let's get exotic and talk about the aerial parts of luo bou ma

(Apocynum whateveris sinensis, NOT to be confused with it's american

cousin). Different classification and signature. Different method.

Here is an outline.

 

First thing we need is 1 liter of thunderstorm water. It is charged

by lightning and contains amonium nitrate from the atmosphere along

with many other interesting things. Sublimation and distilling

apparatus will separate it into what comes over first; 250 ml of

fire-water . Then the next 250 ml to come over is the air-water, the

next water-water etc. The PH of these fractions will be different.

Indentical samples of luo bou ma. are extracted with each of these

fractions. Thus the preliminary elemental division pf Luo bou ma is

done. There are other ways to do it.

 

Thus a plants energetics can also be manipulated by creating a

medicine with varying proportions.

 

I think this will give you an idea on how spagyric analysis is conducted.

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

, " Pat Ethridge "

<pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> Thank you for these detailed descriptions. Could you please say

more about

> the protocols you refer to below?

>

> Pat

>

>

>

> Another interesting aspect of spagyrics is the analytical protocols to

> determine the elemental (ie how much and what proportion of " earth " ,

> " water " , " air " , " fire " ) there is in a medicinal plant.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Dr. G.

>

>

>

>

==============================================================================

> NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally

> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not

read, use or

> disseminate the information. Although this email and any

attachments are

> believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any

> computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the

responsibility

> of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no

responsibility is

> accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage

arising

> in any way from its use.

>

>

==============================================================================

[Guest guest]

This is very fascinating. How do you obtain or create thunderstorm water?

 

Pat

 

 

busyalchimiste

<busyalchimiste@h To:

 

otmail.com> cc:

Re:

Clarification on spagyrics/calcination

Office: and tinctures 4

11/03/2003 03:10

PM

Please respond to

chineseherbacadem

y

 

 

 

 

Hi Pat,

 

Basically these protocols involve submitting the dried and fresh plant

material to element specific extraction techniques (sublimation,

distillation, extraction, calcination, coagulation etc.) in

specialized apparatus with specialized menstuums. The techniques used

can be complex. I'll try and give you a few examples.

 

Let's take Bo He (mint). Let us steam distll it and oversimplefy. What

people refer to as " essential oil " in the case of mint generally can

be called by certain schools " volatile Sulphur " . But to answer your

question, the essential oil is representative of the Air and Fire in

Bo He. The essential oil is further worked by sublimation and

circulation to separate it into Air and Fire.

 

Now that's Mint. It's worked that way because of it's classification

and it's signature.

 

Let's get exotic and talk about the aerial parts of luo bou ma

(Apocynum whateveris sinensis, NOT to be confused with it's american

cousin). Different classification and signature. Different method.

Here is an outline.

 

First thing we need is 1 liter of thunderstorm water. It is charged

by lightning and contains amonium nitrate from the atmosphere along

with many other interesting things. Sublimation and distilling

apparatus will separate it into what comes over first; 250 ml of

fire-water . Then the next 250 ml to come over is the air-water, the

next water-water etc. The PH of these fractions will be different.

Indentical samples of luo bou ma. are extracted with each of these

fractions. Thus the preliminary elemental division pf Luo bou ma is

done. There are other ways to do it.

 

Thus a plants energetics can also be manipulated by creating a

medicine with varying proportions.

 

I think this will give you an idea on how spagyric analysis is conducted.

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

, " Pat Ethridge "

<pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> Thank you for these detailed descriptions. Could you please say

more about

> the protocols you refer to below?

>

> Pat

>

>

>

> Another interesting aspect of spagyrics is the analytical protocols to

> determine the elemental (ie how much and what proportion of " earth " ,

> " water " , " air " , " fire " ) there is in a medicinal plant.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Dr. G.

>

>

>

>

==============================================================================

 

> NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally

> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not

read, use or

> disseminate the information. Although this email and any

attachments are

> believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any

> computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the

responsibility

> of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no

responsibility is

> accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage

arising

> in any way from its use.

>

>

==============================================================================

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Wainwright,

 

You asked;

 

" 1) Does making a spagyric preparation generally change the qi of herbs

> in a regular and predictable manner, e.g. making them hotter, colder,

> making them more ascending, easier to digest, dispersing, astringent,

> entering the qi or blood level more - etc. "

 

If you look in your chinese herbology book, you will note that there

are existing manipulations (pao zhi) that modify the actions and

characteristics of herbs,. Flaws, Sionneau and Bensky have written on

this. Spagyric operations can act in a similar fashion. Depends on

the protocol one uses.

 

You also asked;

 

" How about the effects for specific herbs - for example Ginseng? "

 

The simplest way I can think of answering your question is as follows.

 

In the case of Ren Shen.

 

If you took a recipe you found for ginseng spirits in Bob Flaw's

excellent book on Chinese medicinal Wines and Spirits and had a

competent spagyrist carry out the operation prescribed with a spagyric

menstum/sovent with the same %alcohol as " in the book " , the extraction

and therapeutic power of the spagyric Chinese Medicinal wine/spirit of

ginseng will be more powerful than the non spagyric and contain more

active ingredients tha it's non spagyric cousin. As to the difference

in between using wines/liquors/tinctures to treat as compared to

decoctions, this is discussed in Bob's book to some extent.

 

On the other hand, certain herbs are best as simple teas.

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

 

 

 

-- In , " wainwrightchurchill "

<w.churchill_1-@t...> wrote:

> > Hi Wainwright,

> >

> > Interesting question. It depends on the what herb and what operation

> > (and the purpose thereof) is conducted. Can you be a little more

> > specific ?

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> > Dr. G.

>

> Not being acquainted with making spagyric preparations at all, I don't

> know the variables to ask about. However, I can think of two specific

> questions:

>

> 1) Does making a spagyric preparation generally change the qi of herbs

> in a regular and predictable manner, e.g. making them hotter, colder,

> making them more ascending, easier to digest, dispersing, astringent,

> entering the qi or blood level more - etc.

>

> 2) How about the effects for specific herbs - for example Ginseng?

>

> Thanks.

>

>

> Wainwright

[Guest guest]

You seemed to imply that the water must be struck by lightning. If so, how

do you determine where to put your bucket? Or is it merely random rain

falling during a storm?

 

Pat

 

 

 

With buckets during a thunderstorm. I understand there are not many

of those in SD.

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

, " Pat Ethridge "

<pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> This is very fascinating. How do you obtain or create thunderstorm

water?

>

> Pat

>

>

> busyalchimiste

> <busyalchimiste@h To:

>

> otmail.com> cc:

> Re:

> Clarification on spagyrics/calcination

> Office: and tinctures 4

> 11/03/2003 03:10

> PM

> Please respond to

> chineseherbacadem

> y

>

>

>

>

> Hi Pat,

>

> Basically these protocols involve submitting the dried and fresh plant

> material to element specific extraction techniques (sublimation,

> distillation, extraction, calcination, coagulation etc.) in

> specialized apparatus with specialized menstuums. The techniques used

> can be complex. I'll try and give you a few examples.

>

> Let's take Bo He (mint). Let us steam distll it and oversimplefy. What

> people refer to as " essential oil " in the case of mint generally can

> be called by certain schools " volatile Sulphur " . But to answer your

> question, the essential oil is representative of the Air and Fire in

> Bo He. The essential oil is further worked by sublimation and

> circulation to separate it into Air and Fire.

>

> Now that's Mint. It's worked that way because of it's classification

> and it's signature.

>

> Let's get exotic and talk about the aerial parts of luo bou ma

> (Apocynum whateveris sinensis, NOT to be confused with it's american

> cousin). Different classification and signature. Different method.

> Here is an outline.

>

> First thing we need is 1 liter of thunderstorm water. It is charged

> by lightning and contains amonium nitrate from the atmosphere along

> with many other interesting things. Sublimation and distilling

> apparatus will separate it into what comes over first; 250 ml of

> fire-water . Then the next 250 ml to come over is the air-water, the

> next water-water etc. The PH of these fractions will be different.

> Indentical samples of luo bou ma. are extracted with each of these

> fractions. Thus the preliminary elemental division pf Luo bou ma is

> done. There are other ways to do it.

>

> Thus a plants energetics can also be manipulated by creating a

> medicine with varying proportions.

>

> I think this will give you an idea on how spagyric analysis is

conducted.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Dr. G.

>

> , " Pat Ethridge "

> <pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> > Thank you for these detailed descriptions. Could you please say

> more about

> > the protocols you refer to below?

> >

> > Pat

> >

> >

> >

> > Another interesting aspect of spagyrics is the analytical protocols to

> > determine the elemental (ie how much and what proportion of " earth " ,

> > " water " , " air " , " fire " ) there is in a medicinal plant.

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> > Dr. G.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

==============================================================================

 

>

> > NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be

legally

> > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not

> read, use or

> > disseminate the information. Although this email and any

> attachments are

> > believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any

> > computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the

> responsibility

> > of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no

> responsibility is

> > accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage

> arising

> > in any way from its use.

> >

> >

>

==============================================================================

 

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

With buckets during a thunderstorm. I understand there are not many

of those in SD.

 

Cheers,

 

Dr. G.

 

, " Pat Ethridge "

<pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> This is very fascinating. How do you obtain or create thunderstorm

water?

>

> Pat

>

>

> busyalchimiste

> <busyalchimiste@h To:

>

> otmail.com> cc:

> Re:

> Clarification on spagyrics/calcination

> Office: and tinctures 4

> 11/03/2003 03:10

> PM

> Please respond to

> chineseherbacadem

> y

>

>

>

>

> Hi Pat,

>

> Basically these protocols involve submitting the dried and fresh plant

> material to element specific extraction techniques (sublimation,

> distillation, extraction, calcination, coagulation etc.) in

> specialized apparatus with specialized menstuums. The techniques used

> can be complex. I'll try and give you a few examples.

>

> Let's take Bo He (mint). Let us steam distll it and oversimplefy. What

> people refer to as " essential oil " in the case of mint generally can

> be called by certain schools " volatile Sulphur " . But to answer your

> question, the essential oil is representative of the Air and Fire in

> Bo He. The essential oil is further worked by sublimation and

> circulation to separate it into Air and Fire.

>

> Now that's Mint. It's worked that way because of it's classification

> and it's signature.

>

> Let's get exotic and talk about the aerial parts of luo bou ma

> (Apocynum whateveris sinensis, NOT to be confused with it's american

> cousin). Different classification and signature. Different method.

> Here is an outline.

>

> First thing we need is 1 liter of thunderstorm water. It is charged

> by lightning and contains amonium nitrate from the atmosphere along

> with many other interesting things. Sublimation and distilling

> apparatus will separate it into what comes over first; 250 ml of

> fire-water . Then the next 250 ml to come over is the air-water, the

> next water-water etc. The PH of these fractions will be different.

> Indentical samples of luo bou ma. are extracted with each of these

> fractions. Thus the preliminary elemental division pf Luo bou ma is

> done. There are other ways to do it.

>

> Thus a plants energetics can also be manipulated by creating a

> medicine with varying proportions.

>

> I think this will give you an idea on how spagyric analysis is

conducted.

>

> Cheers,

>

> Dr. G.

>

> , " Pat Ethridge "

> <pat.ethridge@c...> wrote:

> > Thank you for these detailed descriptions. Could you please say

> more about

> > the protocols you refer to below?

> >

> > Pat

> >

> >

> >

> > Another interesting aspect of spagyrics is the analytical protocols to

> > determine the elemental (ie how much and what proportion of " earth " ,

> > " water " , " air " , " fire " ) there is in a medicinal plant.

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> > Dr. G.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

==============================================================================

>

> > NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be

legally

> > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not

> read, use or

> > disseminate the information. Although this email and any

> attachments are

> > believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any

> > computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the

> responsibility

> > of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no

> responsibility is

> > accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage

> arising

> > in any way from its use.

> >

> >

>

==============================================================================

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare

> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

> specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional

> services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>