AAOM Pulse Conclave

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/3/03 8:03:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,

writes:

 

 

> > , " Alon Marcus " wrote:

> > > Jim I think AAOM meeting is in las Vegas next year. We should

> > probably have about 9 patients to get some numbers. Who else do

> you

> > think should participate >>>

> >

> >

> >

> > alon:

> >

> > Leon Hammer or one of the practitioners from the Shen lineage are

> > the only major players that I can think of offhand; but I'm sure

> > there may be others. >>>

>

>

> Some further thoughts:

> If we do the patients blind, each practitioner will need an hour per

> patient. We should also have a half day set up so that attendees can

> learn some of the major features of each pulse system and practice

> treatments using it themselves. Then, at the end, a panel to discuss

> why some features are found in common and why there are differences.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

 

Jim and Alon - the question for me is what are the objectives? I hear:

 

1. Perform an inter-rater reliability study between traditions

2. Compare traditions

3. Teach various traditions

 

Also, there are other pulse methods worth discussing besides Shen-Hammer and

Dong Han such as Japanese and Taiwanese. Another approach might be methodology

for approaching particular clinical questions.

 

Interested parties contact me so we can set up a pulse diagnosis subcommittee

for the 2004 conference.

 

Will

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

the question for me is what are the objectives? I hear:

Another approach might be methodology for approaching particular

clinical questions. >>>

 

 

Will:

 

This event would be probably unprecedented for hundreds of years and

very exciting.

 

Approaching clinical questions is my priority, too. It would be

fascinating to see how each system diagnosed a particular thing like

a tumor, infection, schizophrenia, etc.; then designed a treatment

for it in order to see how the pulses changed. And much more

interesting than getting people from all these various systems

together to ask, " Everybody got dampness with that last patient? "

 

Also include some Tibetan and Vedic pulse practitioners. I would be

fascinated to see how their interpretations with the spleen and

liver on the opposite sides of Chinese and Koreans work in diagnosis.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Jim and Alon - the question for me is what are the objectives? I hear:

 

1. Perform an inter-rater reliability study between traditions

2. Compare traditions

3. Teach various traditions

 

>>>>We should discuss this. I am interested first to see if there is inter-rater

reliability in the pulse description and therefore I think we should have people

either define their definition or just write the description of sensations. I am

also interested if any of the tradition could diagnose biomedical diseases in

these patients. Lastly I am curios how the pulses change or dictate how they

would approach the patient after they find out their illnesses

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " wrote:

> >>>>We should discuss this. I am interested first to see if there

is inter-rater reliability in the pulse description and therefore I

think we should have people either define their definition or just

write the description of sensations. I am also interested if any of

the tradition could diagnose biomedical diseases in these patients.

Lastly I am curios how the pulses change or dictate how they would

approach the patient after they find out their illnesses

 

 

 

alon:

 

While there should be some inter-rater reliability for the

rudimentary pulses, more complex styles of reading should have a

wide divergence. Unless you're asking whether you can sense what

somone is pointing out to you. Sensing a specific pulse and

interpreting it are two different processes.

 

For example, someone doing just TCM will not spontaneously discover

the special pulse positions (neuro-psychological and special lung,

for example) used in the Shen/Hammer system. Even though I am aware

of them, we don't use them in the Dong Han system because we see

spaces and functions of the body folded into the regular positions,

and use both smaller sections and noncontiguous patterns. And then

there are the Tibetans and Vedic who see spleen and liver reveresed

(or we do).

 

You can read some of how the Dong Han system interprets WM in the

pulse in my article, " Organs and Their Associated Pulses. "

 

I expect that all these different pulse systems will make the

patient look like some sort of Escher drawing or Picasso cubist

painting. It should be very exciting.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

While there should be some inter-rater reliability for the

rudimentary pulses, more complex styles of reading should have a

wide divergence. Unless you're asking whether you can sense what

somone is pointing out to you. Sensing a specific pulse and

interpreting it are two different processes.

>>>>Thats why i was saying write down the qualities. If one says its floating

and other deep these are the interrater stuff we need to look at. Basic TCM

pulses. The rest will be very interesting for example if we have a patient with

documented CA or heart disease can this be picked up

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> While there should be some inter-rater reliability for the

> rudimentary pulses, more complex styles of reading should have a

> wide divergence. Unless you're asking whether you can sense what

> somone is pointing out to you. Sensing a specific pulse and

> interpreting it are two different processes.

> >>>>Thats why i was saying write down the qualities. If one says

its floating and other deep these are the interrater stuff we need

to look at. Basic TCM pulses. The rest will be very interesting for

example if we have a patient with documented CA or heart disease can

this be picked up

 

 

alon:

 

The basics should be doable, although not that interesting. The

identification of pulse patterns for documented Western diseases

would be exciting to see in a variety of systems.

 

I was having lunch with a new practitioner here in town that wants

to learn pulses and was reminded of a joke that seems appropo to

this venture.

 

 

Q: How many acupuncturists does it take to change a light bulb?

 

A: Ten. One to actually change the bulb, and nine others to say how

they would do it differently.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

I've talked in my public lectures from time to time about what I call

the 'Picasso principle', i.e. the idea of looking at a patient from

several angles at once, like the multi-perspective of a cubist

painting.

 

Pulse diagnosis provides a nice format for this type of thinking.

 

 

On Nov 5, 2003, at 9:59 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

 

> I expect that all these different pulse systems will make the

> patient look like some sort of Escher drawing or Picasso cubist

> painting. It should be very exciting.

[Guest guest]

Z'ev and everyone,

 

Here is a link to an article by Tom Kepler

from the Santa Fe Institute that elaborates

on this theme of Picasso and perception.

 

http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/publications/Bulletins/bulletinSummer01/insideSfi/

picasso.html

 

Tom is the fellow at SFI who lobbies for inclusion

of Chinese medicine within the purview of researchers

working under SFI's considerable umbrella.

 

Ken

 

, " " <

zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I've talked in my public lectures from time to time about what I call

> the 'Picasso principle', i.e. the idea of looking at a patient from

> several angles at once, like the multi-perspective of a cubist

> painting.

>

> Pulse diagnosis provides a nice format for this type of thinking.

>

>

> On Nov 5, 2003, at 9:59 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

>

> > I expect that all these different pulse systems will make the

> > patient look like some sort of Escher drawing or Picasso cubist

> > painting. It should be very exciting.

[Guest guest]

By the way,

(Ken is posting from about 150 feet away in the next room), the link

doesn't work. go directly to the www.santafe.edu website and go to the

journal link to find the article.

 

 

On Nov 5, 2003, at 3:56 PM, kenrose2008 wrote:

 

> Z'ev and everyone,

>

> Here is a link to an article by Tom Kepler

> from the Santa Fe Institute that elaborates

> on this theme of Picasso and perception.

>

> http://www.santafe.edu/sfi/publications/Bulletins/bulletinSummer01/

> insideSfi/

> picasso.html

>

> Tom is the fellow at SFI who lobbies for inclusion

> of Chinese medicine within the purview of researchers

> working under SFI's considerable umbrella.

>

> Ken

>

> , " " <

> zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

>> I've talked in my public lectures from time to time about what I call

>> the 'Picasso principle', i.e. the idea of looking at a patient from

>> several angles at once, like the multi-perspective of a cubist

>> painting.

>>

>> Pulse diagnosis provides a nice format for this type of thinking.

>>

>>

>> On Nov 5, 2003, at 9:59 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

>>

>>> I expect that all these different pulse systems will make the

>>> patient look like some sort of Escher drawing or Picasso cubist

>>> painting. It should be very exciting.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " "

> Pulse diagnosis provides a nice format for this type of thinking.

>

>

> On Nov 5, 2003, at 9:59 AM, James Ramholz wrote:

>

> > I expect that all these different pulse systems will make the

> > patient look like some sort of Escher drawing or Picasso cubist

> > painting. It should be very exciting.>>>

 

 

 

Just like gunpowder and printing, the Chinese can say they had it

first!

 

 

Jim Ramholz