Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Doug: > The way I see it, that bronchitis has to have inflammation to be a correct diagnosis. > As far as know this means there has to be a heat element. Marco: Really? As far I been lead to consider these things inflammation per say do not mean anything as with any sign or symptom... For example cold hands means just that. The pathomechanism may be a variety of co-factors... (i.e. not yang vacuity for example) Only the other day I was ranting and raving how inflammation is not enough to draw (as indeed any one S & S) a conclusion... morning stiffness (as opposed to morning wood courtesy term by Bob Flaws:-) coldness is very much likely signs and symptoms say in arthritis and some stream-style-school of moxa may be immensely useful. Of course moxa can probably also dissipate heat as well as cold so not necessarily conclusive... Anyway I personally do not agree when inflammation gets automatically equated with heat... Saludos and Dough you speak spanish don't you I know Robert (japanish acumoxa artist does) hence year 2004 i think there really is no excuse for not coming to Guatemala...hint hint... Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Again this is usually because of misuse of inflammation >>>do you then consider inflamation as always heat? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 As far I been lead to consider these things inflammation per say do not mean anything as with any sign or symptom... >>>Again this is usually because of misuse of inflammation alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 morning stiffness (as opposed to morning wood courtesy term by Bob Flaws:-) coldness is very much likely signs and symptoms say in arthritis and some stream-style-school of moxa may be immensely useful. Of course moxa can probably also dissipate heat as well as cold so not necessarily conclusive... >>>Again there is usually no differination done between arthrosis and arthritis, active and none active etc. I guess there we go again with terms alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Again there is usually no differination done between arthrosis and arthritis, active and none active etc. I guess there we go again with terms >>>> Is inflamation the alwayys heat in your opinion? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 This is exactly the point. The exercise was to charactorize a western diagnosis of bronchitis as heat or cold condition. The issue is still on the table as to when sticky white phlegm is a heat condition. Again, as far as I know in-flame-ation is heat... how much it is mis-used is another can of worms. , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > As far I been lead to consider these things inflammation per say do not mean > anything as with any sign or symptom... > > >>>Again this is usually because of misuse of inflammation > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Doug: > This is exactly the point. The exercise was to characterise a western diagnosis of > bronchitis as heat or cold condition. The issue is still on the table as to when sticky > white phlegm is a heat condition. > Again, as far as I know in-flame-ation is heat... how much it is mis-used is another > can of worms. Marco: this concept you are presenting will now widen my ideas that I had previously about inflammation and hence diagnoses and treatment. If I had Chinese Materia Medica then I defenialty would have to consider what you are saying and no doubt it might change my treatment plan and I still can ruminate on my previous understanding of so call inflammation... thanks BTW you did not respond to my Spanish question...:-) Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 do you then consider inflamation as always heat? >>>I never say always or never. But if one has active inflammation there will be signs of heat. The problem is that you may need instruments to see it. For example, gastritis if one looks in one can do CM dif diagnosis based on the appearance of the gastric mucus. While often there is a correlation between other signs such as tongue this is not always so. When i was in china i visited a Stomach specialist (CM) that told me that using this he gets better results when prescribing herbs. We see this in a lot of the CM literature e.g., atrophic gastritis etc. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Although I am suspecting that a one to one correspondence would be a dream come true... >>>There is no one to one correlations within CM how can there be one between paradigms alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Again, as far as I know in-flame-ation is heat... how much it is mis-used is another can of worms. >>>There are some forms of inflammation that you would have a hard time saying is heat. Some types of chronic inflammations do not show any increase in heat or redness for example even though one can find inflammatory cells. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Si Marco, hablo mucho espanol.... mucho malo. ;-) Quiero ir a Guatemala, no conoco esta pais pero ahora tengo uno o dos problemos economicos. Yo quiero ir pero realamente penso no es possible. lo siento. douglas > Saludos and Dough you speak spanish don't you I know Robert (japanish > acumoxa artist does) > hence year 2004 i think there really is no excuse for not coming to > Guatemala...hint hint... > > Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Again there is usually no differination done between arthrosis and arthritis, active and none active etc. I guess there we go again with terms >>>>And what they implicate... Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 When i was in china i visited a Stomach specialist (CM) that told me that using this he gets better results when prescribing herbs. We see this in a lot of the CM literature e.g., atrophic gastritis etc. >>>>How did it change the treatment principal and treatment plan and the agents thereof? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 There are some forms of inflammation that you would have a hard time saying is heat. Some types of chronic inflammations do not show any increase in heat or redness for example even though one can find inflammatory cells. >>>>Which according to signs and symptoms would mean something, however from the info above what would you consider this " non heat " inflammatory reaction from CM view point? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 When i was in china i visited a Stomach specialist (CM) that told me that using this he gets better results when prescribing herbs. We see this in a lot of the CM literature e.g., atrophic gastritis etc. >>>>How did it change the treatment principal and treatment plan and the agents thereof? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Again there is usually no differination done between arthrosis and arthritis, active and none active etc. I guess there we go again with terms >>>>And what they implicate... Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 How did it change the treatment principal and treatment plan and the agents thereof? >>>Again i did not get details as i cant do it alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 There are some forms of inflammation that you would have a hard time saying is heat. Some types of chronic inflammations do not show any increase in heat or redness for example even though one can find inflammatory cells. >>>If there is no vaso reactions you could not call it heat alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 If there is no vaso reactions you could not call it heat >>>>Why? MARCO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 If there is no vaso reactions you could not call it heat >>>>Why? MARCO >>>>>Because you could not correlate the symptoms and signs. Remember one can only correlate WM to CM if the symptoms and signs are the same or close enough. For you to have signs of heat you need the vaso reaction because this is what is putting out the heat, redness etc Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 > If there is no vaso reactions you could not call it heat > >>>>Why? > MARCO > >>>>>Because you could not correlate the symptoms and signs. Remember one can only correlate WM to CM if the symptoms and signs are the same or close enough. For you to have signs of heat you need the vaso reaction because this is what is putting out the heat, redness etc > Alon >>>>>>>Great stuff, here heat as an objective phenomen can be idetified but what about walking to fast and / or eating to fast? Is that also vaso reaction? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 what about walking to fast and / or eating to fast? Is that also vaso reaction? >>>>>Yes but we are talking clinical sym and inflammation Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Yes but we are talking clinical sym and inflammation >>>>which Chinese medicine and Western medicine may define different? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 which Chinese medicine and Western medicine may define different? Marco >>>>>Again, when active inflammation is seen with significant vaso activity you have heat, redness, etc if CM defines such symptoms as not heat well may be alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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