inflammation alwyas heat and thus treatment?

[Guest guest]

Jim wrote-

 

>>>What if there is only localized, internal inflammation---so there isn't

obvious redness or warmth?

 

I is my understanding that in cases like the above, without any sign of heat,

you wouldn't call it heat. I am a bit unclear on what you mean when you say

" internal inflammation " . If it can be seen, and there is swelling but no signs

of heat then following treatment approaches for zhong-3 (swelling) might be more

appropriate. Maybe you're trying to look at the possibility that there may be

heat that you cannot see- I still think that you have to go with the observed

signs and reported symptoms.

 

respectfully,

Jason Robertson

 

 

 

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

 

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

 

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Alon wrote-

>>>>>If it is internal and by technology one can see the evidence of such tissue

change i would have no problem trying a Heat diagnosis, at least congested

(constraint) heat.

 

My understanding of the term " congested " (chinese yong-3) generally refers to a

more substantial (material) stasis in the channels while the term " constraint "

(chinese lian-3) has a meaning like " astringe " or " hold in " as in " to constrain

yin " . I reccomend looking at the definintion for " stoppage " in the new Wiseman

dictionary for an interesting discussion of all of the terms that might mean

blocked/stuck in Chinese.

 

My question at this point to Alon would be- What is the treatment prinicple in

Chinese medicine for treating a " constrained " heat that has no signs of heat?

I think that you are making the mistake that you yourself warned against when

you use modern technology to make observations that aren't in the Chinese

framework. You may, of course, be advocating a course that integrates these new

technologies into the diagnostic process but, by doing that, you may be coming

up with faulty diagnoses from a classical Chinese point of view thus faulty

treatment principles and less than satisfactory results. Why not just stick

with the approach that says " if there are no signs of heat, then it isn't heat-

call it zhong-3 (swelling) and proceed from there. This has already been shown

to get results- thus the survival of the theory. Why try to re-invent all of

this if it has already been thought through and tried over and again for

centuries? You could still develop diagnoses and treatment

principles from a very traditional frame of reference and observe the results

from a more modern frame of reference (i.e.- using the microscope to verify if

there are/are not changes after treatment).

 

respectfully,

 

Jason Robertson

 

 

 

 

 

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

 

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

 

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

 

 

 

 

Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

 

 

[Guest guest]

My question at this point to Alon would be- What is the treatment prinicple in

Chinese medicine for treating a " constrained " heat that has no signs of heat?

>>>>I never said there are no signs. I said you may need technology to see the

signs

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

You may, of course, be advocating a course that integrates these new

technologies into the diagnostic process but, by doing that, you may be coming

up with faulty diagnoses from a classical Chinese point of view thus faulty

treatment principles and less than satisfactory results. Why not just stick

with the approach that says " if there are no signs of heat, then it isn't heat-

call it zhong-3 (swelling) and proceed from there. This has already been shown

to get results- thus the survival of the theory. Why try to re-invent all of

this if it has already been thought through and tried over and again for

centuries?

>>>As i said in past post i have seen gastroscopy used in china to make

differential diagnosis and than the information used successfully to treat

gastritis even when tongue etc did not show heat or other signs.I have seen

patients treated with toniying and warming even though the tongue showed heat

but gastroscopy showed only atrophy and paleness

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason wrote: Why not just stick with the approach that says " if there are no

signs of heat, then it isn't heat- call it zhong-3 (swelling) and proceed from

there. This has already been shown to get results- thus the survival of the

theory. Why try to re-invent all of this if it has already been thought through

and tried over and again for centuries?

 

: While I don't disagree, Who showed this and in what fashion? As

Unschuld has also pointed out, CM survived because it was culturally effective.

there is no evidence that it was widely clinically effective and or that much of

the population really had access to what we call CM. Most folks were treated

by illiterate doctors who may have known little about bian zheng. The

educated doctors catered to a minute fraction of the population and I think we

must be very careful to read too much into their records without confirmatory

modern research on efficacy.

 

 

But lets talk about inflammation. Is inflammation swelling alone? Jason said

that redness must be necessary to define heat. But if one looks to the medical

dictionary, inflammation must have all the following four qualities - rubor,

dolor, calor and tumor. the last refers swelling, but the rubor means red and

calor means heat. Thus, the classic definition of inflammation includes both

heat and redness, thus heat is present from a TCM perspective, right? Swelling

alone is something else, but its not inflammation.

 

OK, then how does one explain arthritis responding to hot herbs and often

having no swelling. Well, its the joint that reddens, not the muscle

necessarily,

thus the heat may be too deep to see. Or perhaps many folks get dx with

arthritis when they really have arthralgia, a non inflammatory condition. I

believe the latter is likely true. However, many of the folks with cold bi are

the ones with joint deformity, thus severe arthritis. To add one more piece to

the puzzle, many warming herbs such as fu zi and du huo have clinically and

pharmacologically verifiable anti-inflam properties. Hard to know what to

make of all this.

 

[Guest guest]

I

believe the latter is likely true. However, many of the folks with cold bi are

the ones with joint deformity, thus severe arthritis.

>>>Sorry Todd joint deformity does not mean inflammation and is the definition

(DJD) of arthrosis

Alon