Slipp & Choppy Pulse

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz "

<jramholz> wrote:

> << Al Stone: So, I question the opposition of slippery and choppy.>>

>

> Well, Wiseman says so.

>

> Wiseman: " A slippery pulse is commonly seen in pregnancy,

> particularly in the early stages where extra blood is needed to

> nourish the fetus. It is also sometimes seen in healthy people,

> indicating an abundance of qi and blood. "

>

> When the pulse is Slippery the first thing you know is that the

yang

> energy condition is becoming overly active. It sometimes also

> indicates that moisture, especially mucus secretion, is excessive.

> So when the pulse is Slippery, first two important things that you

> should think of is that there might be some activity with the heat

> and, secondly, you have to ask yourself if the heat is caused just

> by the qi or also the xue as well. The quality of the Slippery

pulse

> often indicates localized excessive heat when it is in one position

> or in a sector of a position. In this case, it can indicate

> excessive localized mucus production. It will manifest when the

> source qi is unable to hold kidney fire, causing heat at the blood

> level.

>

 

Jim & others,

 

I am definitely no pulse-head, so pardon my basic question... I have

never thought of a slippery pulse representing heat and activity – in

anf of itself. Is this a common attribute documented in the

literature or your own idea from your system? I find slippery can

represent xu or repletion, hot or cold depending on the other

qualities with it, i.e. fast slow etc. Can you elaborate?

 

(more below)

>

> Wiseman (se mai): " A pulse opposite to the slippery pulse, i.e.,

one

> that does not flow smoothly and that is classically described as " a

> knife scraping bamboo. " The rough pulse is sometimes termed a

choppy

> or dry pulse in English. It tends to be somewhat fine, is generally

> slightly slower than the normal pulse, and has been described as

> being " fine, slow, short, dry, and beating with difficulty. " The

> rough pulse is often seen in blood stasis patterns and dual vacuity

> of blood and qi. "

>

> Choppy or rough in clinical practice is a very general term, and

> almost anything that is neither Soft nor Slippery may be considered

> as a Choppy pulse as long as it does not have the smooth type of a

> texture characteristic of the Slippery pulse. It can even feel like

> very fine sandpaper. A Choppy (also Sandy, Rough, or Fine) pulse is

> a yin pulse indicating a cold syndrome; the rougher it gets, the

> colder it is. It is usually found as a cold syndrome in the deeper

> area of the body, indicating a circulatory imbalance or poor blood

> circulation.

 

I personally find choppy pulses that are also large, fast etc (using

al's the 3rd definition ) there is a roughness to the texture of the

pulse, non-smooth flow... Do others find this? I interpret this as

stagnation, and many times with heat.

 

Furthermore back to Todd's original question. IT seems the concept

of having a slippery and choppy pulse simultaneously depends on the

definition. AS al points out there are different ideas. And I think

one of those is from the web and mentioned no where else (does

someone know?)... but anyway, if one gauges the choppy on irregular

of strength or rhythm, then this can IMO occur with a slippery

pulse. But the roughness 'quality' that vibration, that rough

texture in the meat of the pulse (or the outer edges) seems to be

completely contradictory to the definition of slippery. SO I have

never dx's both at the same time... Unless I say choppy in the rt cun

and slippery in the rt guan, which I see somewhat often...

 

Can we suss out where those other definitions are from? Al?

 

-

[Guest guest]

<<< Jason: I am definitely no pulse-head, so pardon my basic

question... I havenever thought of a slippery pulse representing

heat and activity – in anf of itself. Is this a common attribute

documented in the literature or your own idea from your system? I

find slippery can represent xu or repletion, hot or cold depending

on the other qualities with it, i.e. fast slow etc. Can you

elaborate? >>>

 

I can, but now you're asking a totally different question. When

asking about a definition of a slippery or choppy pulse, you should

not be asking about every kind of pulse combination they can be

mixed with; they are usually found as textures. And those

combinations are what is in people's minds that leads to the

confusion and discussion. The original question was about the basic

pulses or qualities themselves; not about what other pulse types

they were mixed with. We rarely see a single pulse; they are usually

composite or several qualities mixed together. So,strictly speaking,

there is no such thing as " A " slippery pulse, or " A " choppy pulse by

themselves; they are always mixed with other qualities.

 

In this pair, the reference is to qi flow. Slippery can represent

heat because it is more than normal yang, and more yin because that

heat creates mucus and dampness; while choppy is less than normal

qi. Always keep in mind that these basic qualities take on their

real meaning depending in which position they are in and what other

qualities they are mixed with. They are never out of a context---the

opposite way to which Western's think of objects or asking what

something " is " .

 

When the pulse is slippery the first thing you know is that the yang

energy condition is becoming overly active. It sometimes also

indicates that moisture, especially the mucus secretion is too high.

So when the pulse is slippery, one thing that you will first think

of is that there might be some activity with the heat, and

secondarily you have to ask yourself whether the heat is caused just

by the qi or also the xue as well, because this condition also

indicates mucus meaning that the body fluids are in excess, so it

could be just hot or cold type, but if slipperiness is led by any

other mode you can verify by any other organs.

 

If the slippery pulse is seen in the Sanjiao, it will be differently

analyzed than seeing it in the spleen pulse. If the slippery pulse

is entering toward the heart, it might not only be the mucus, it can

also be a blood related condition, it can even be a blood clot. If a

slippery pulse is shown on the Mingmen or kidney it can indicate

strong blood coagulation causing irregularity of period or

amenorrhea. Which feels like a slippery, oily bead that slips from

under your finger, it is not a weak pulse, it is a little hard

rolling. When you see a green onion slippery pulse entering towards

the heart, it can indicate abrupt flow, so the blood is thickly at

once and then it gets thinned out, it is a heart problem involving

arterial tightening or even a blood clot holding. If you find a

slippery and green onion or empty pulse in the deep area of the

kidney it definitely is an uterus relating condition. Any slippery

and empty pulse indicates a blood involved condition.

 

When you find such a pulse and you are not sure how to analyze it,

slipperiness can be a heart problem of a blood problem, then you can

check other organs and verify them. If it is a heart motion problem

you can check with the liver pulse to see if the thrust of the qi

going to the heart is normal or not, if you are wondering if it is a

clotting problem then you can check from the spleen relation to the

heart, if you are wondering if it is an arterial condition or

tightening of the tissue around the heart you can also check the

spleen and liver relation, so you do not have to do any guess work.

But anyways when you find the slippery pulse the only thing that you

know clearly is that it is some kind of an excessive activity, so it

is a yang pulse, and it is done but the yang energy movement, but

not necessarily containing heat, even though many times it does

contain heat.

 

The most important thing you have to decide is whether the heat is

qi related or blood related, and then you can go from there. Do not

forget that many times this pulse is a mucus indicator and when

mucus is shown like that it is not the type of mucus that is just

getting profusely secreted, many times it will be the type of mucus

that is already blocking the area.

 

 

 

<<< I personally find choppy pulses that are also large, fast etc

(using al's the 3rd definition ) there is a roughness to the texture

of the pulse, non-smooth flow... Do others find this? I interpret

this as stagnation, and many times with heat. >>>

 

Again, you're not talking about choppiness by itself, but how it

mixes with other qualities---two different questions.

 

 

<<< but anyway, if one gauges the choppy on irregular

of strength or rhythm, then this can IMO occur with a slippery

pulse. >>>

 

Choppiness and slipperiness are textures, rhythm and strength are

different other variable qualities that can combine with and

transform them.

 

 

<<< But the roughness 'quality' that vibration, that rough

texture in the meat of the pulse (or the outer edges) seems to be

completely contradictory to the definition of slippery. So I have

never dx's both at the same time... Unless I say choppy in the rt cun

and slippery in the rt guan, which I see somewhat often... >>>

 

My point exactly.

 

 

Jim Ramholz