Guest guest Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Hi group- Does anyone know where I can purchase herbal injectables? Thanks Teresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 In a message dated 11/13/03 10:24:30 AM, Teresa.bodywork4u writes: > Hi group- > > Does anyone know where I can purchase herbal injectables? > > Thanks > Teresa > > The only place I know is the PRC, so you have to go or ask a friend to bring them back. Unfortunately, there are a lot of problems, mostly legal, with using herbs in injections. Most people use the Heel companies Traumeel, which is in the PDR and can be defended fairly easily, plus it works too. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 I believe that injectables are within the scope of practice at least in Flo= rida. I know of one person who has researched where to buy them from China. You can contact= me off list and I'll try to dig up her number. doug , acuman1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 11/13/03 10:24:30 AM, Teresa.bodywork4u@w... > writes: > > > > Hi group- > > > > Does anyone know where I can purchase herbal injectables? > > > > Thanks > > Teresa > > > > > > The only place I know is the PRC, so you have to go or ask a friend to br= ing > them back. Unfortunately, there are a lot of problems, mostly legal, with= > using herbs in injections. Most people use the Heel companies Traumeel, w= hich is > in the PDR and can be defended fairly easily, plus it works too. > David Molony > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 I believe that injectables are within the scope of practice at least in Flo= rida. I know of one person who has researched where to buy them from China. You can contact= me off list and I'll try to dig up her number. doug >>>>>In NM, Fl, Or, Hr and i am not sure where else alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 and New Mexico. BUT, you should know that those states where injectables are considered within the scope of practice, are not allowed to use " herbal " injectables, but rather use saline, procaine, and/or B12, and inject into acupoints. Correct me if I am wrong, but that is my understanding. Interestingly, do you know why there is the freedom of practice in those states? Because of the unified lobbying efforts to legislators by acupuncture practitioners/oriental medical doctors. As I think I posted in an earlier thread, Marilyn Allen, tells me that there are plans under way to one day in the next few months, rent space across the street from the Capitol in Sacramento, and offer legislators free treatments. So you want injectables? THAT'S how you can get injectables. Just imagine what we can achieve when we work together. Your friend and humble student, Yehuda On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:36:05 -0000 " " writes: > I believe that injectables are within the scope of practice at least > in Flo= > rida. I know of > one person who has researched where to buy them from China. You can > contact= > me > off list and I'll try to dig up her number. > doug > > , acuman1@a... wrote: > > > > In a message dated 11/13/03 10:24:30 AM, Teresa.bodywork4u@w... > > writes: > > > > > > > Hi group- > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can purchase herbal injectables? > > > > > > Thanks > > > Teresa > > > > > > > > > > The only place I know is the PRC, so you have to go or ask a > friend to br= > ing > > them back. Unfortunately, there are a lot of problems, mostly > legal, with= > > > using herbs in injections. Most people use the Heel companies > Traumeel, w= > hich is > > in the PDR and can be defended fairly easily, plus it works too. > > David Molony > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Wow, they're now legal in Oregon? I didn't know that. But what is Hr? Yehuda On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:03:08 -0800 " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus writes: > I believe that injectables are within the scope of practice at least > in Flo= > rida. I know of > one person who has researched where to buy them from China. You can > contact= > me > off list and I'll try to dig up her number. > doug > >>>>>In NM, Fl, Or, Hr and i am not sure where else > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Dear Listmembers, I think we have to look closely into the problem of using Chinese herbal injectables as to whether they come within the parameters of Chinese medical practice. We have to bear in mind that we are using 'injection needles ' which is a biomedical tool for drug delivery and not acupuncture needles. There might be an issue of an overlap of scope of medical practice here i.e. between biomedine and Chinese medical practice More specifically , there might be issues tied up with the right to prescribe pharmaceuticals. Six years ago, the premises of a Chinese herbalist here in Melbourne was searched by the police . He was also taken to court for prescribing a Chinese herbal preparation mixed with pharmaceutical drugs (steroids) that supposedly led to some patients developing a 'moon face.' The preparation was not injections but tablets. This incidents was among the many that promoted the process of statutory registration of Chinese medical practitoners here in the state of Victoria (however, the statutory regulation was not done on the basis of defining the scope of practice but rather the regulation onthe basis of the use of title) . But it highlighted then the issue of overlap of scope of medical practice of two medical tradition i.e CM and WM Regards, Rey Tiquia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Rey, I am not at all suggesting the underground use of injectables which would be anything but prudent. What I am suggesting is the same applications (as well as perhaps other applications based on our Western creativity) as are used in the PRC, specifically legislated to be included in our scope of practice, and specifically and completely pure unadulterated and without any traces of Western pharmaceuticals. Under those circumstances, why not? Sincerely, Yehuda On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:49:52 +1100 " rey tiquia " <rey writes: > > Dear Listmembers, > > I think we have to look closely into the problem of using Chinese > herbal > injectables as to whether they come within the parameters of Chinese > medical > practice. We have to bear in mind that we are using 'injection > needles ' > which is a biomedical tool for drug delivery and not acupuncture > needles. > There might be an issue of an overlap of scope of medical practice > here > i.e. between biomedine and Chinese medical practice More > specifically , > there might be issues tied up with the right to prescribe > pharmaceuticals. > > Six years ago, the premises of a Chinese herbalist here in > Melbourne was > searched by the police . He was also taken to court for prescribing > a > Chinese herbal preparation mixed with pharmaceutical drugs > (steroids) that > supposedly led to some patients developing a 'moon face.' The > preparation > was not injections but tablets. This incidents was among the many > that > promoted the process of statutory registration of Chinese medical > practitoners here in the state of Victoria (however, the statutory > regulation was not done on the basis of defining the scope of > practice but > rather the regulation onthe basis of the use of title) . But it > highlighted > then the issue of overlap of scope of medical practice of two > medical > tradition i.e CM and WM > > Regards, > > Rey Tiquia > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 In a message dated 11/20/03 1:05:05 PM, kenrose2008 writes: > In Colorado, who are we working for? > Who controls the knowledge there? > > Who defines what an acupuncture > point is and what you can do with it? > > I'm not asking for the identies of the > board members, I'm wondering out > loud how the questions that Paul raises > have been answered in specific on the > ground situations. > > How is it, in other words, that local > authorities come into possession of > an understanding of matters on which > there is relatively little agreement or > even discussion in the professional > and academic circles? > > Who is controlling us? W'ho is deining > us. > It seems to me that in CO, the folks that made the ruling did not require that everyone used point injection therapy or that everyone would be required to know how to use them. However, it is in their, and our, best interests if those that do use the not quite everyday modalities of our profession know and possibly are certified in, how to use these modalities properly. Has the state organization or the local college developed a point injection programme? Standards do need to be developed in order to be responsible about what is given to us. Herbal injections are very different from point injection, altho they can be used for such. With herbs, it is generally the herbs being used theraputically and not where they are injected. This will have to be dealt with seperately and differently from point injection and will require different, and probably more extensive, training. David Molony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 We have the ability to practice injection therapy here in Colorado. We were granted this because our scope specifies that we may practice acupuncture and " adjunctive " therapies. Our regulatory office (Colorado has not authorized additional medical boards for over 20 years) looks at whether a technique is commonly taught in schools, and appears in textbooks to assess what constitutes an " adjunctive " technique. Southwest Acupuncture College asked the regulatory board in 1999 to clarify whether or not injection therapy would fall into this category, as we had in our curriculum an upcoming class that included the technique, and wanted to make sure we were not violating our scope of practice to teach it. The regulatory board determined that it was within our scope of practice as long as the technique was limited to the use of injection therapy to stimulate an acupuncture point. Therefore, should we want to deliver a material substance, such a Procaine, into the tissue, whose effect was based on the pharmacology of the substance rather than the stimulation of point, that would be considered out of our scope at the moment. We have been successful in being able to use B 12 because of its documented use as a substance within Oreintal medicine that is warming and nourishing to the blood. We inject it at much lower doses than would be used as a WM nutritional therapy. We are allowed sterile saline B 12 and homeopathic injectables such as Traumeel (since they are chemically saline). I have not been able to find herbal injectables that are FDA approved, so we do teach about their use in China, but do not include them within our classes here. I would need to have a further clarification from the state in order to do so, as it seems to me that herbal injectables may be used as adjunctive to acupuncture point stimulation, and they may be delivered for their own pharmacology. I do not believe that L. Acs currently have sufficient training to administer substances normally considered to be pharmaceuticals, such as Procaine. We would need much more training in managing anaphylaxis and in having the emergency equipment on hand in order to manage such an event. This is the area where I think the lines of WM and CM become much more blurred. Having injection therapy in your scope does not necessarily give LAcs prescriptive authority to have access to equipment and sterile injectable materials. We now face in Colorado a need to refine the rules surrounding this part of our scope. I suspect that it will lead to requiring documentation of training in the technique (IMO, a necessary step) and a limitation on what material can be used and for what reason. I do not think that we will be able to use herbal injectables as is done in China with our current scope without a lot of explaining to do. Valerie Hobbs, L Ac. _______________ Groove on the latest from the hot new rock groups! Get downloads, videos, and more here. http://special.msn.com/entertainment/wiredformusic.armx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Valerie, I appreciate your clearheaded statement of the situation that you face. And I just want to point out that all of this explaining that we more and more find ourselves required to do demands that we spruce up our handling of the terms that inevitably wind up playing such a crucial role in our explanations. When such explanations reveal that we don't really know what we're talking about, the regulatory, policy, treatment, and even marketing decisions are all jeopardized and subjected to the vagaries of a state of widespread confusion. I wonder where the board that made the adjudication in Colorado turned to determine what it means to stimulate an acupuncture point. And I wonder what the relationship is between whatever authoritative source these folks relied upon for this definition and the historical literature and knowledge on the subject. In Colorado, who are we working for? Who controls the knowledge there? Who defines what an acupuncture point is and what you can do with it? I'm not asking for the identies of the board members, I'm wondering out loud how the questions that Paul raises have been answered in specific on the ground situations. How is it, in other words, that local authorities come into possession of an understanding of matters on which there is relatively little agreement or even discussion in the professional and academic circles? Who is controlling us? W'ho is deining us. It ain't Nigel Wiseman, folks. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 should be Ar not Hr Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 I think we have to look closely into the problem of using Chinese herbal injectables as to whether they come within the parameters of Chinese medical practice. We have to bear in mind that we are using 'injection needles ' which is a biomedical tool for drug delivery and not acupuncture needles. There might be an issue of an overlap of scope of medical practice here i.e. between biomedine and Chinese medical practice More specifically , there might be issues tied up with the right to prescribe pharmaceuticals >>>>At what point is CM development stop? can you give the date please alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Six years ago, the premises of a Chinese herbalist here in Melbourne was searched by the police . He was also taken to court for prescribing a Chinese herbal preparation mixed with pharmaceutical drugs (steroids) that supposedly led to some patients developing a 'moon face.' The preparation was not injections but tablets. This incidents was among the many that promoted the process of statutory registration of Chinese medical practitoners here in the state of Victoria (however, the statutory regulation was not done on the basis of defining the scope of practice but rather the regulation onthe basis of the use of title) . But it highlighted then the issue of overlap of scope of medical practice of two medical tradition i.e CM and WM >>>>This is fraud nothing to do with appropriate use of injection techniques Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 In many, but not all states, one can get a nice MD or DO to prescribe point injection of saline or traumeel and do it. Alon poined out that in CA you may not be able to do so because it is considered " theraputic " and thus cannot be done there, but it might be good to get a CAB counsel opinioin on this. DAvid Molony >>>>>Its a question of invasiveness. Acupoint injection with a small needle may not be a problem but to inject anatomical structure ie a tendon, ligament etc is not aloud even for RN alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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