Clinical relevance

[Guest guest]

and All,

yesterday challenged me and others

on the basis of our clinical backgrounds.

 

In an earlier post I referred to my past clinical experience in

general terms, and if it is an issue for people

to know the extent of one's clinical training

and experience in order to be able to

evaluate statements made on the basis

of their clinical relevance, I am more than

happy to exchange detailed accounts.

 

Of course, if people are not really interested

or feel they need to know about how many

thousands of patients I have seen over the

past thirty years or what the character of

my current clinical work is like, reading through

such accounts would be pointless.

 

So if Todd's assertions are construed to be

valid, I suggest that we all prepare summaries

of our clinical experiences and post them in

the files section where they can be compared

by the curious.

 

If Todd's assertions are construed to be invalid,

then I'm happy to just drop this thread and get

back to the fun.

 

I was angered by Todd's post in which he attempted

to dismiss me by suggesting that from a clinical

point of view I don't know what I'm talking about

and have no basis for even making judgments

let alone statements about the subject.

 

Since you haven't replied to my post in which

I picked up your glove, I don't know if

you intend to put your money where your

mouth is (forgive the mixing of metaphor here

it always happens when I'm angry).

 

If you don't feel like fighting tooth and nail

over this in public, you can contact me

privately by email or by phone. I left my

number on your message machine yesterday.

 

But I will share anything you say to me

privately with the group.

 

You know my attitude about encouraging

discussion. In virtually every instance

where a decision must be made about

granting others the right and the opportunity

to express their opinions I come down on

the side of simply encouraging everyone

to say what's on their mind.

 

I encourage you, to say what's on

your mind. But I most strongly discourage

you from any further suggestion or inuendo

along the lines that I have no right to be

taking part in these discussions on the

basis of clinical experience.

 

My clinical experience far outstretches yours

in any quantifiable axis you define. More years,

more patients, more successes, more failures.

 

I have watched patients die. I have saved

patients' lives. I have mended broken bones.

I have cleaned gangrenous wounds and

set dislocated limbs. I've picked up bodies

off the street that were struck by cars and

busses and patched them up and sent

them on their way. I've treated cholera

patients in Chengdu during an outbreak

in 1994. Like I said, I'm happy to exchange

detailed accounts if that is of interest and

needful for people here.

 

In general, what I am saying to you is

that I have more experience applying Chinese

medicine to people in China, Europe and

the United States than you do now and

more than you may ever have.

 

So you may want to think twidce before

you take this approach by which you assert that

what you say is valid and what I say is

invalid on the basis of the contrast between

our clinical experiences.

 

The reason why I don't take part in most

of the discussions on this list that concern

clinical details is that it is generally impossible

for me to address clinical realities outside of

the clinic where I can see and touch the patient.

 

And it always seems ironic to me that those

who argue the overriding importance of clinical

issues with respect to abstract discussions about

them fail to recognize that selfsame abstraction.

 

Talking about the clinic is not being in the clinic.

 

And as I said, I am always ready to appear in

any clinic anywhere and demonstrate how

my approach to Chinese medicine functions.

I just can't do that via email.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, " kenrose2008 "

<kenrose2008> wrote:

 

> I was angered by Todd's post in which he attempted

> to dismiss me by suggesting that from a clinical

> point of view I don't know what I'm talking about

> and have no basis for even making judgments

> let alone statements about the subject.

 

You are jumping to conclusions, reading into his post. You may be

right or you may be wrong, but you are persuing this as if you are right.

 

I read Todd's post. He asked to be reminded who other than Z'ev (whom

he knows personally) sees patients regularly. It was a fair question.

He did not state his reasons for wanting to know. Nor did he state

any conclusions based on possible answers.

 

We all now know by your posts that in the past, you have seen patients

regularly. Todd knows me - I am an intern at PCOM, so I would not say

that I have much clinical experience at all.

 

Anyone else?

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

I don't want to speak for anyone else personally, but I can say two

things. One, that there has been a perceived bias in part of our

community not to take Ken seriously because he is not a clinician.

Secondly, I've had long conversations with Ken about clinical cases,

diagnosis and related matters, and he is not only eloquent about

clinical medicine, he does excellent work.

 

 

On Nov 14, 2003, at 9:00 AM, bcataiji wrote:

 

> , " kenrose2008 "

> <kenrose2008> wrote:

>

>> I was angered by Todd's post in which he attempted

>> to dismiss me by suggesting that from a clinical

>> point of view I don't know what I'm talking about

>> and have no basis for even making judgments

>> let alone statements about the subject.

>

> You are jumping to conclusions, reading into his post. You may be

> right or you may be wrong, but you are persuing this as if you are

> right.

>

> I read Todd's post. He asked to be reminded who other than Z'ev (whom

> he knows personally) sees patients regularly. It was a fair question.

> He did not state his reasons for wanting to know. Nor did he state

> any conclusions based on possible answers.

>

> We all now know by your posts that in the past, you have seen patients

> regularly. Todd knows me - I am an intern at PCOM, so I would not say

> that I have much clinical experience at all.

>

> Anyone else?

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, I agree. I'll confess that I have noted that bias in myself

when provoked by something Ken had written. I understand Ken's anger at the

assertion, but I appreciate that he has had the oppurtunity to set the record

straight, many of us did not know the extent of his clinical experience. Dean

-

Friday, November 14, 2003 11:27 AM

Re: Re: Clinical relevance

 

 

I don't want to speak for anyone else personally, but I can say two

things. One, that there has been a perceived bias in part of our

community not to take Ken seriously because he is not a clinician.

Secondly, I've had long conversations with Ken about clinical cases,

diagnosis and related matters, and he is not only eloquent about

clinical medicine, he does excellent work.

 

On Nov 14, 2003, at 9:00 AM, bcataiji wrote:

 

> , " kenrose2008 "

> <kenrose2008> wrote:

>

>> I was angered by Todd's post in which he attempted

>> to dismiss me by suggesting that from a clinical

>> point of view I don't know what I'm talking about

>> and have no basis for even making judgments

>> let alone statements about the subject.

>

> You are jumping to conclusions, reading into his post. You may be

> right or you may be wrong, but you are persuing this as if you are

> right.

>

> I read Todd's post. He asked to be reminded who other than Z'ev (whom

> he knows personally) sees patients regularly. It was a fair question.

> He did not state his reasons for wanting to know. Nor did he state

> any conclusions based on possible answers.

>

> We all now know by your posts that in the past, you have seen patients

> regularly. Todd knows me - I am an intern at PCOM, so I would not say

> that I have much clinical experience at all.

>

> Anyone else?

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I hope I'm not preaching to the unconverted here, but i think we

should thank Ken Rose for being so serious, passionate and skilful

that he is prepared and able to introduce joy, delight, provocation,

daring, learning, maybe sometimes a hint of mischief, to this quest

that could otherwise almost be too serious and heavy to bear.

 

 

-

" " <zrosenbe

 

Friday, November 14, 2003 7:27 PM

Re: Re: Clinical relevance

 

 

> I don't want to speak for anyone else personally, but I can say two

> things. One, that there has been a perceived bias in part of our

> community not to take Ken seriously because he is not a clinician.

> Secondly, I've had long conversations with Ken about clinical cases,

> diagnosis and related matters, and he is not only eloquent about

> clinical medicine, he does excellent work.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Second, I have come to recognize something

very personal about my own capacity in

the clinical encounter, namely, that I

work best when there are no other

considerations admitted than the patient's

condition and my responses to it, both

diagnostically and therapeutically.

 

Ken, I understand and admire the recognition of which you write and, I commend

you for creating work for yourself that (I trust) is rewarding to you; work

which is certainly of benefit to the art and profession of Chinese medicine. I

have had the experience of gaining great and valuable clinical insights from a

teacher who was himself not in the habit of working clinically. Everyone knows

that clinicians are important to medicine but without writers and teachers and

herb growers and suppliers, and UPS drivers, and so on, we are no where. As a

clinician, whenever I am feeling particularly pressed-up against what I am doing

it is helpful remember that what " I am doing " is actually a great collaboration

with hundreds and thousands of people, many long since past, and many very

clearly present. How lucky we are to part of that great body. Dean

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dean:

whenever I am feeling particularly pressed-up against what I am doing it is

helpful remember that what " I am doing " is actually a great collaboration

with hundreds and thousands of people, many long since past, and many very

clearly present. How lucky we are to part of that great body.

 

Marco:

concisely put... that is why CM has so much potential and is a infinite

study and language part of that " invisible glue like " phenomena...

 

BTW have you treated haemorrhoids mainly with acumoxa?

[Guest guest]

Wainwright,

 

I'm converted. My friendship with Ken Rose has taught me one thing ... that he

is a force of nature. He tries so willingly and joyfully to comply with

whatever the tao calls upon him to do ... becoming soft and then hard in quick

succession. Ken gets in everyone's face because we all resist the tao from time

to time ... and he can't resist delivering unsolicited tao ... as the tao is

calling upon him. When he gets in my face, even in my own home, I find myself

laughing and leaning in to him. Then we're both laughing and falling down all

tangled up in friendship. Ken is so easy for me to love and befriend. I fully

agree with you that Ken is beautifully relentless.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

wainwrightchurchill

Friday, November 14, 2003 11:46 AM

Re: Clinical relevance

 

 

I hope I'm not preaching to the unconverted here, but i think we

should thank Ken Rose for being so serious, passionate and skilful

that he is prepared and able to introduce joy, delight, provocation,

daring, learning, maybe sometimes a hint of mischief, to this quest

that could otherwise almost be too serious and heavy to bear.

 

 

-

" " <zrosenbe

Friday, November 14, 2003 7:27 PM

Re: Re: Clinical relevance

 

 

> I don't want to speak for anyone else personally, but I can say two

> things. One, that there has been a perceived bias in part of our

> community not to take Ken seriously because he is not a clinician.

> Secondly, I've had long conversations with Ken about clinical cases,

> diagnosis and related matters, and he is not only eloquent about

> clinical medicine, he does excellent work.

>

>