Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Hi All, & Hi Bob, Bob Flaws wrote: > I will say this yet one more time. When it comes to the practice > of specifically tui na and acupuncture, I'm ok with the current > level of students. However, when it comes to the practice of > internal medicine, I'd also be more than ok with half the current > students being expelled as well as half the current teachers > fired. One of our big problems is the conflation of these two > modalities into a signle profession. The intelligence and > education to do acupuncture safely and successfully is, IMO, quite > different from that necessary to do internal medicine safely and > effectively. I don't think we will ever solve our main academic > problems as long as we continue trying to teach these two allied > but different modalities to a single group of students in a single > curriculum. I agree 100% and that is why I began my study of " real TCM " after about 25 years of successful use of AP! It forced me to study the patterns to depths unnecessary for the successful practice of AP. AP is simple as compared with CHM. I reckon that a medical professional could learn basic AP in 40-120 hours of skilled, focused teaching + (say) 12 months reading of some recommended texts. CHM, in contrast, requires great precision in pattern recognition and selection of the appropriate remedies. I have been studying CHM part-time for almost 5 years now. Though I use herbs occasionally in " simple " cases, it will be many more years before I have the confidence to use it in routine clinical work. IMO, a good CHM curriculum must give clear definitions of the TCM terminology and Patterns as the basis for therapy. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 , " " wrote: > I agree 100% and that is why I began my study of " real TCM " after > about 25 years of successful use of AP! It forced me to study the > patterns to depths unnecessary for the successful practice of AP. >>> " Real TCM? " As Robin Williams used to say, " Reality! What a concept. " On the face of it, you're probably correct. Basic TCM acupuncture is as simple as . . . well, basic TCM herbology. How hard is it to give someone an herbal formula and resolve their problem? You can get away with about 30 different basic herb formulas in practice. My point is that you can make either topic as easy or as hard as you like. You can go into greater detail in any area and never exhaust it. That you were never exposed to more sophisticated styles of acupuncture is unfortunate. Studying deeper patterns is a particularly worthwhile endevor and keeps pushing the envelope of the art---and you could also have done that in acupuncture. But, understandably, this is an herbal forum. But if you're interested in deeper patterns, I can show you things in your own patients' pulses that you never saw before, and only a few Chinese have understood. Jim Ramholz > AP is simple as compared with CHM. I reckon that a medical > professional could learn basic AP in 40-120 hours of skilled, > focused teaching + (say) 12 months reading of some > recommended texts. > > CHM, in contrast, requires great precision in pattern recognition > and selection of the appropriate remedies. I have been studying > CHM part-time for almost 5 years now. Though I use herbs > occasionally in " simple " cases, it will be many more years before I have the confidence to use it in routine clinical work. > > IMO, a good CHM curriculum must give clear definitions of the TCM > terminology and Patterns as the basis for therapy. > > Best regards, > > Email: <@e...> > > WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland > Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > > HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland > Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] > WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 I also find much more depth in acupuncture and moxabustion than is usually attributed. Using the pulses, working with the channels, timing, needle and moxa technique is a fairly complex and fulfilling undertaking. I've never understood how anyone thought that acupuncture was a simple subject when compared with herbal medicine. It is just different. On Nov 14, 2003, at 3:54 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > My point is that you can make either topic as easy or as hard as you > like. You can go into greater detail in any area and never exhaust > it. That you were never exposed to more sophisticated styles of > acupuncture is unfortunate. > > Studying deeper patterns is a particularly worthwhile endevor and > keeps pushing the envelope of the art---and you could also have done > that in acupuncture. But, understandably, this is an herbal forum. > But if you're interested in deeper patterns, I can show you things > in your own patients' pulses that you never saw before, and only a > few Chinese have understood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 One you can try is " The Channel Divergences " by Chip Chace and Miki Shima from Blue Poppy Press. Another is " Chasing the Dragon's Tail " by Yoshio Manaka from Paradigm Press. Finally, " Golden Needle Wang le TIng " from Blue Poppy Press. On Nov 15, 2003, at 2:40 AM, Marco wrote: > Zev' and Brian and James, > > Intresting what books/ materials in the English language are > recomended for > this often overlooked aspects of Acumoxa? > > Marco > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 > Zev' and Brian and James, > > Intresting what books/ materials in the English language are recomended for > this often overlooked aspects of Acumoxa? > > Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Thank you Z'ev, Misssed the bellow post... I like the Kiiko and Birch series, altough not yet enter the hall of comprhension... Marco - " " <zrosenbe Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:41 AM Re: Re: Knowledge needed for AP v CHM > One you can try is " The Channel Divergences " by Chip Chace and Miki > Shima from Blue Poppy Press. Another is " Chasing the Dragon's Tail " by > Yoshio Manaka from Paradigm Press. Finally, " Golden Needle Wang le > TIng " from Blue Poppy Press. > > > On Nov 15, 2003, at 2:40 AM, Marco wrote: > > > Zev' and Brian and James, > > > > Intresting what books/ materials in the English language are > > recomended for > > this often overlooked aspects of Acumoxa? > > > > Marco > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 , " Marco " wrote: > > Zev' and Brian and James, > > > > Intresting what books/materials in the English language are recomended for this often overlooked aspects of Acumoxa? Marco: The best place to start is Unschuld's new book about the Suwen. While he sorts out and summarizes the material well, his explanations of it are sometimes limited because the Chinese authors themselves didn't really fully develop their ideas in the book. Saying that, I do like his appendix for chapters 66-72. He organizes and summarizes the ideas better than the original, although there isn't much clinical application. But in any case, you can learn the general rules for 5-Phases, Host and Guest, etc., and experiment with with them using acupuncture, after checking the Chinese calendar. Another place is the Mai Jing. There's lots of interesting ideas about pulses---far beyond what is typically practiced. We apply most of these ideas in the Dong Han system. For example, an historical precedent for the Dong Han system's use of 27-sectors can be found in Book 10. The most interesting books for herbs are yet untranslated and in Chinese. Although Blue Poppy did do a translation of part of " Secret Shaolin Formula " by the Monk deChan---and my book back in 1992 translated some of the tonification formulas. It's fascinating work studying these formulas which, unfortunately, few use or discuss. I've made many and tried them on myself and friends. These three should keep you busy for a little while. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Z'ev & Brian, We've been over this ground before. However, I still believe that differences in sophistication in acupuncture theory and technique have little influence on acupuncture outcomes. If you want to believe they do, that's your perogative. In my experience, acupuncture outcomes are more dependent on belief than any other single factor (since some acupuncturists don't even insert needles). Interestingly, Golden Needle Wang Le-ting, arguably one of the most famous and most experienced 20th century acupuncturists in north China, felt the same way. I also believe that the onus of proving that differences in sophistication in acupuncture theory and technique achieves better outcomes rests with you, the believers. Until or unless you can prove this to me, I regard such belief as a form of doctrinal orthodoxy (a polite way of saying funadmentalism). Bob , " bcataiji " <bca@o...> wrote: > , " " > <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > I also find much more depth in acupuncture and moxabustion than is > > usually attributed. Using the pulses, working with the channels, > > timing, needle and moxa technique is a fairly complex and fulfilling > > undertaking. I've never understood how anyone thought that acupuncture > > was a simple subject when compared with herbal medicine. It is just > > different. > > > > > > I agree with this thought Z'ev. In addition, it may be that > Acupuncture is more difficult to perfect than Herbal Medicine. > > Afterall, if both you and I were to give the same formula to the same > person under the same circumstances, but at different times, the > formula would probably have the same effect. > > However, if you and I were to needle a point, say ST-36, on the same > person with the same condition, but at different times, the needling > would not necessarily have the same effect - not just because of the > different time, but because you and I are different, and so the Yi > when needling, not to mention physical technique, would differ. > > This is one the things that makes PCOM week. There is so much more > emphasis on Herbal Medicine than on actual acupuncture, when it is > acupuncture that requires so much more hands on practice with training > from accomplished needlers. > > Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 <<Z'ev & Brian, We've been over this ground before. However, I still believe that differences in sophistication in acupuncture theory and technique have little influence on acupuncture outcomes. If you want to believe they do, that's your perogative. In my experience, acupuncture outcomes are more dependent on belief than any other single factor (since some acupuncturists don't even insert needles). Interestingly, Golden Needle Wang Le-ting, arguably one of the most famous and most experienced 20th century acupuncturists in north China, felt the same way. I also believe that the onus of proving that differences in sophistication in acupuncture theory and technique achieves better outcomes rests with you, the believers. Until or unless you can prove this to me, I regard such belief as a form of doctrinal orthodoxy (a polite way of saying funadmentalism). Bob>> Bob, I think one can even go further. Felix Mann assserts that acupuncture points don't exist, nor do meridians [in his article in Filshie and White eds - Medical Acupuncture]. He does, however, believe that acupuncture can cure or alleviate disease. " More dependent on belief than any other single factor " leaves room for that 'anything else' to have a signficant effect. The question is, if one wants to be an acupuncturist, what should one study, and why? I'd be interested in your thoughts. Wainwright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I also believe that the onus of proving that differences in sophistication in acupuncture theory and technique achieves better outcomes rests with you, the believers. Until or unless you can prove this to me, I regard such belief as a form of doctrinal orthodoxy (a polite way of saying funadmentalism). Bob >>>>>For a second hear i thought i am hearing an eco, sounds like me talking. While i would argue that herbs do need more sophistication again there is some fundamentalism going on as well Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 For a second hear i thought i am hearing an eco, sounds like me talking. While i would argue that herbs do need more sophistication again there is some fundamentalism going on as well Alon >>>>>In terms of acumoxa CM TEAM what is " Fundametalism " refering too? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 This would be an interesting discussion, and even perhaps a more interesting research project. But if you are already putting a value judgment on an alternative point of view to yours, count me out. Once the term 'fundamentalism' comes into the discussion, any hope of a fair and balanced debate is lost, with its present negative religious and political associations. On Nov 18, 2003, at 8:30 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: > Z'ev & Brian, > > > > I also believe that the onus of proving that differences in > sophistication in acupuncture theory and technique achieves better > outcomes > rests with you, the believers. Until or unless you can prove this to > me, I regard such belief as a form of doctrinal orthodoxy (a polite > way of saying funadmentalism). > > Bob > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Wainwright " I think one can even go further. Felix Mann assserts that acupuncture points don't exist, nor do meridians [in his article in Filshie and > White eds - Medical Acupuncture]. " As conceptual entities, I think acupoints and channels both do exist. Perhaps points more so than channels. But the concept of channels does help explain certain clinical observations. However, I'm not sure I believe any more in yin and yang channels or channels carrying varying amounts of qi and blood. I don't believe in " open points " and I certainly don't believe in one point being the single key point to a person's physical and psychospiritual well-being (a concept I've heard secondhand was promulgated by a Pacific Symposium presenter). I've read some of Mann's more recent writings and find I agree with a lot of what he has also come to believe after years and years of working with this stuff. As I have stated before, I do not believe that CM theory is a NECESSARY prerequisite for getting good results with acupuncture. " He does, however, believe that acupuncture can cure or alleviate disease. " I mostly definitely do believe in this. " More dependent on belief than any other single factor " leaves room for that 'anything else' to have a signficant effect. " Mmm. I chose my words carefully and did mean what I said, neither more nor less. I'm not interested, at the present time, in trying to describe all the factors that I think go into the " acupuncture effect. " Let's just say for the nonce that I believe there is placebo effect, the effects of caring comminication, the effects of one person touching another, general acupuncture stimulatory effects from needling anywhere on the body, and specific stimulatory effects from needling certain areas. " The question is, if one wants to be an acupuncturist, what should one study, and why? " Excellent questions. I'm not sure I have any answers for you. I guess I'd say to study whatever you believe in until you no longer believe it. Another approach is to study whatever pleases you the most. That may, in fact, be synonymous with whatever you believe in. I'll have to give that some more thought. I do think that we get attached to certain ideas and then argue about the rectitude of those ideas when, from a larger point of view, we are really arguing aesthetics or dogma. You know the old saying, " Orthodoxy is what I believe and heresy is what you believe. " At some point in life, I think it's healthy not to be too attached to one's ideas. And, as Ken would probably add, even that idea. As a group, I think acupuncturists take themselves way too seriously when it comes to CM. Probably this has to do with all of us being " converts " and converts' well-known tendency to be " holier than thou. " Recently, Blue Poppy tried to do some comical advertising. The ads were, IMO (and I had nothing to do with them), extremely clever and well executed. But they fell flat on their face. In post-morteming their performance, we came to the conclusion that acupuncturists as a group don't like to kid around about " our " medicine. This is serious shit. BTW, as someone intimately involved in the creation of the Channel Divergences book, if you (not meaning actually you, Wainwright) really think that stuff is great, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I can make you a really good deal on. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 , " Marco " <bergh@i...> wrote: > > >>>>>In terms of acumoxa CM TEAM what is " Fundamentalism " refering too? > Marco Marco, I trust those who are wielding this word will answer as they see fit. However in my experience, in any context, it is usually a specious, self-serving term used to discredit or disenfranchise those whose frame of reference, choices, modus operandus, and knowledge base differ from one's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Probably by having an experience Dr that does procedures be the control. They can be very confident looking. Bob I think there are a lot of things we two would like to see that the profession is not ready too >>>>>what is the profesion not ready too? Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 If these effects are enough to influence the outcomes than the real acupuncture is only a small magnitude better than the untrained acup, which would not endorse traditional acup much >>>>>>>Nor so call western acupuncture... Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 , " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote: > If in fact good mood and joyful endeavors represent a key factor, do you figure that studies will adequately document this? If you tell your patient to engage in joyful, even exalting, artistic or creative endeavors in order to tonify kidney qi, how would you research the results of your treatment protocols? >>> Emmanuel: You would probably know better than I what can be studied and the reliability of that research. My only sense of a " study " would be something quite simple that we can do at a school clinic to present to the American public for promotion of the profession, stating that acupuncture or herbal formulas showed x% improvement in the treatment of a particular condition; which might be compared to the use of a drug or WM. I wouldn't even go so far as to distinguish different patterns and formulas for a blanket WM condition---say arthritis, cold and flu, headache, etc. But the study should be tied to a advertising program for the profession. If we did that, then money for a more serious study might become available from new sources. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Jim, You're scaring me a little. Seriously, I view you as a friend over these now many months of posting. Okay, I speak everyday with marketers and the like who want to work up some case studies that they can point to on behalf of some product. One of the problems in marketing Chinese herbal products is that they must be presented as " dietary supplements " and not as medicine. To present them as having " efficacy " with regard to any " condition for benefit " will cost you $500,000,000.00 (approximately) in research dollars plus the approval of the FDA. So, okay, we have to do a few case studies and then we have to say that this herbal formula and/or acupuncture treatment made these people " feel better " ? Have different pulses? Have a different tongue presentation? We can't claim " efficacy " with regard to any " condition for benefit " and then advertise it on the Oprah Winfrey Show ... or in some magazine or newspaper. You could conduct research and report that research in a peer-reviewed journal ... but then that's not advertising your product. To change this whole scenario you have to do what the " new " AMA did back in the early 20th Century and go to Congress and get laws passed .... maybe even create a new federal agency. We could call it the U.S. Food and Drug Agency. No, that name's taken. How about the U.S. Herbal Formula and Acupuncture Agency. Maybe something like that. Then they would set guidelines for advertising your product for which you could actually make claims for " efficacy " with regard to " conditions for benefit " . I think that would work. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen - James Ramholz Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2:39 PM Re: Knowledge needed for AP v CHM , " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote: > If in fact good mood and joyful endeavors represent a key factor, do you figure that studies will adequately document this? If you tell your patient to engage in joyful, even exalting, artistic or creative endeavors in order to tonify kidney qi, how would you research the results of your treatment protocols? >>> Emmanuel: You would probably know better than I what can be studied and the reliability of that research. My only sense of a " study " would be something quite simple that we can do at a school clinic to present to the American public for promotion of the profession, stating that acupuncture or herbal formulas showed x% improvement in the treatment of a particular condition; which might be compared to the use of a drug or WM. I wouldn't even go so far as to distinguish different patterns and formulas for a blanket WM condition---say arthritis, cold and flu, headache, etc. But the study should be tied to a advertising program for the profession. If we did that, then money for a more serious study might become available from new sources. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Are, This is a fascinating post. I particularly like the observation that different combinations of points seem more effective at different junctures in time than others. I like the question: is it me, or is it the horses that have changed? I think this relates to some of CHA's discussions as well about different disease patterns existing over time, and different treatments being necessary. But within the scope of a person's lifetime, what can this phenomenon be attributed to? I have observed this myself, both with my patients and with my own personal health needs as well, and it simultaneously baffles and fascinates me. Are Thoresen <arethore wrote: Hi all, well, what is the deeper cause of the results within acupuncture (and also most other natural healing methods)? Most Acupuncturists and Homeopaths agree that homeopathy and acupuncture work through information and regulation to/of the somatic processes. Acupuncture and homeopathy stimulate the self-healing mechanisms of the body. Many other medicines do not do that, for example penicillin works by its own antibacterial actions that can inhibit or kill bacteria within the body as well as in-vitro (outside the body). This is not the case with acupuncture and homeopathy. To be of therapeutic value, they must modulate the body's homeostatic processes, i.e. they must target the body's self-healing mechanisms. The mechanism of action: How acupuncture and homeopathy work (how they stimulate the body's self-healing processes) has been debated in depth through the years Many mechanisms have been suggested. Some of these have been identified, especially in research on acupuncture. Regardless of what mechanisms have been suggested, the end result is always that the body's self-healing mechanisms must be activated. Some worrying observations: During the years I have observed some paradoxical anomalies between my clinical results and those of others, as I am sure you have also. Those that have bothered me are discussed below. Paradoxical observations in acupuncture: 1.. Most veterinary acupuncturists, who use AP or gold implants at the acupoints, find them to be most successful and effective to treat canine hip dysplasia (HD). Clinical experience from several colleagues, with overall success rates of 80-90%, supports this opinion. Recently, although they used slightly different methods of implantation, three independent uncontrolled retrospective clinical studies on the effectiveness of gold implants to treat canine HD in 218 dogs in Denmark (the late Jens Klitsgaard, 100 dogs), Norway (Are Thoresen, 50 dogs) and Germany (Erhard Schulze, 68 dogs) reported a clinical success rate of near 90%. However, the clinical response to gold bead implantation AP to treat canine HD was evaluated also in two double-blind studies. One was in Finland by Anna Hielm et al (1998) and the other was in the USA by Bebchuk et al (1998). Also there will shortly be publishes a third article by Gry Jäger (Oslo 2002). Anna Hielm gave me a summary of her article in Finnish. The dogs were treated in a double-blinded study; the owners did the evaluation. Both groups of dogs showed positive results but there was no difference between the two groups. Bebchuk's study was a communication from his university. He also treated the dogs in a double-blind study but the evaluation was objective; it used force-plates to measure the force exerted by the dogs on the treated limbs. Neither group of dogs improved, and there was no difference between the two groups. The dogs in the treatment group tended to get worse. Gry Jäger's article will conclude (as reported at the IVAS Congress in Spietz) that there was a positive and statistical difference between the two groups, but much less that one may expect according to the results reported by Klitsgaard, Schulze and Thoresen. All three studies show the same result: gold-implantation in the hip area had little or no positive effect on the dogs and some dogs in Bebchuck's study even got worse! So we see that a very successful therapy in the clinic is almost without effect in a double-blind trial. 2.. A good friend and colleague in Norway has had good results in his acupuncture therapy in recent years,. He then hired helpers, colleagues and animal-caretakers, who did not believe in acupuncture. After two years he told me; " Are, I do not understand what is happening, acupuncture does not seem to work for me any more " . 3.. A colleague in the US said the following: " Twenty-five years ago I had great results treating just GB29, 30, and BL54 in canine hip dysplasia. If I treat just these points today, I would see very little improvement in my patients. I agree that focus and mindset is a major part in one's treatment protocol and point selection. In the treatment of hip dysplasia, you (i.e. Are) place a much higher degree of power on the use of Liv 3 than I do; therefore Liv 3 works for you but not for me. I treat many conditions for which I use only one needle, or implant only one point, but my focus is different from when I am treating hip dysplasia. We are getting back to focus and intent, the two most important factors in acupuncture. A German colleague answered to this: " Some years ago I had to open the Du Mai with Gb 41 first in about 80% of my horse patients. Today it happens about once a week. Who changed? The horses or I? " Paradoxical observations in homeopathy: 1.. Beneviste's investigations showed that the results differed when he made the trials alone versus in the presence of sceptics. He suggested that the presence of the critical persons " zeroed " the results of the investigations. 2.. Later, Professor Kröplin at the University of Stuttgart showed clearly that mood-changes of the scientists changed the results in sensitive crystallisation by such a degree (up to 47%) that the claims of Beneviste no longer seem so far-fetched. (Kröplin 2001). 3.. Many investigations showed that homeopathy works sometimes, and sometimes not (Coulter 1980, Linde 1997, Vaarst 1996). Also many homeopathic studies show that results are very good in the clinic but are bad in double-blinded trials. Paradoxical observations in biodynamic agriculture: 1.. Biodynamic agriculture uses homeopathic substances called the " Remedies " . As in homeopathy, Biodynamic agriculture has given paradoxical results in practical situations; some people have had good results but others not. Many farmers report good results but controlled trials have shown little or no effect. 2.. In farming I have often heard that methods or remedies that clearly work in the field, totally lose their effect when submitted to double-blind investigations. Paradoxical observations in other areas of science: 1.. Viktor Schauberger, between the first and the second world wars, conducted many interesting trials and studies in Austria on the peculiarities of water. His results amazed many scientists, and even Hitler ordered him to work for his war-machine. Later, it emerged that it was almost impossible to replicate Schauberger's results but few have suggested that he was cheating. 2.. Sir Jagadis Chandra Bose, one of the most famous scientists in India, showed with his self-constructed machines that plants and metals had a soul-life of their own. The problem was that nobody could replicate his results. My interpretation of his trials is that his own psyche (intention) was so strong that it influenced his results. 3.. Professor Kröplin from Stuttgart has shown that the patterns of crystallisations and the forms of drops falling into water was up to 48% influenced by the emotions of the scientists. This would explain the results of many great " alternative " scientists, such as Shauberger, Bose and even Steiner. 4.. Quantum-physics also indicates that the observer influences the observed results; the scientists influence the outcome from a given experimental protocol, and the variation between their results is unexplained. Many quantum-physicists accept this today; however, Werner Heisenberg's uncertainly-equation may explain the differences practically and theoretically. Here is a quote from " The Tao of Physics " by Fritjof Capra: " In modern physics, the question of consciousness has arisen in connection with the observation of atomic phenomena can only be understood as links in a chain of processes, the end of which lies in the consciousness of the human observer " . In the words of Eugene Wigner: " It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum theory in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness. " Wigner and others have argued that the explicit inclusion of human consciousness may be an essential aspect of future theories of matter. These concepts all indicate that the qualities of the therapist may influence the outcome of a treatment or experiment, as modern quantum physics has suggested. Many serious AP books from China expressed this opinion, for example: · Chapter 26 of the Suwen: " ... That which differentiates craftsmen is [to observe] what is not manifested to be observed externally and that all [others] cannot observe. Therefore observing that which is obscure means seeing that which has no form and tasting that which has no flavour. This [capacity] seems to be divine " . · Scheid & Bensky: In pre-Han China, yì (intention) was considered a pre-requisite of the knowledge and understanding required for and derived from the divination practices based on the I-jing. " Yì is what the sages used to search profundity and study the all encompassing. As it is profound, it can penetrate throughout the purpose of the subcelestial realm. As it is all encompassing, it can penetrate throughout the affairs of the subcelestial realm. As it is divine, it is fast but never hurries; it arrives but never travels " . · Zhenjiu Dacheng: " The importance of AP lies in concentration of the mind " · Guo Yuzhi: " needling ability rests with whether [acupuncturist] can focus his attention on the heart and hand during the needling " . · Xu Yinzong: " Medicine is Yì (intention); it is in one's thoughts and deliberations. Conclusions: 1. The conclusion, that the qualities of the therapist, especially Yì (intention), may influence the outcome of a treatment may explain why homeopaths and doctors disagree, and never will agree. If the therapist's intent, formed by years of study and clinical conviction, really is the most important aspect of clinical medicine, it may explain very well why scientists and doctors (who rely on dispassionate randomised controlled trials for evidence of clinical efficiency) disagree with homeopaths and acupuncturists about the reality of their clical results. Double-blinded studies cannot allow for the influence of Yì (intention), and must show little difference between the treated and control groups than in a clinical situation where focused positive intent is present. 2. As veterinarians, when we treat animals, we must pay much more attention to our own Yì, and to the psyche of our patients. 3. We must abandon double-blind trials in all investigations on therapies that involve the self-healing properties of the body 4. We must realise that the results of " great spirits " , like the people mentioned above (and also Rudolf Steiner), cannot be duplicated, and may even have been the results of their intention and belief. Are Simeon Thoresen arethore http://home.online.no/~arethore/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Jim, > > You're scaring me a little. Seriously, I view you as a friend over these now many months of posting. > > Okay, I speak everyday with marketers and the like who want to work up some case studies that they can point to on behalf of some product. One of the problems in marketing Chinese herbal products is that they must be presented as " dietary supplements " and not as medicine. To present them as having " efficacy " with regard to any " condition for benefit " will cost you $500,000,000.00 (approximately) in research dollars plus the approval of the FDA. E, I may be wrong on this, but I see a major different between marketing a 'product' and producing research to benefit our profession and market ourselves to the public. We are not trying to market some 'CHINESE herbal product', we are merlely trying to show efficacy in certain conditions… and this is shown my decrease in symptomology (via questionnaire) or lab test values, simple as that… - > > So, okay, we have to do a few case studies and then we have to say that this herbal formula and/or acupuncture treatment made these people " feel better " ? Have different pulses? Have a different tongue presentation? We can't claim " efficacy " with regard to any " condition for benefit " and then advertise it on the Oprah Winfrey Show ... or in some magazine or newspaper. You could conduct research and report that research in a peer-reviewed journal ... but then that's not advertising your product. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 , " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote: > To change this whole scenario you have to do what the " new " AMA did back in the early 20th Century and go to Congress and get laws passed .... maybe even create a new federal agency. We could call it the U.S. Food and Drug Agency. No, that name's taken. How about the U.S. Herbal Formula and Acupuncture Agency. Maybe something like that. Then they would set guidelines for advertising your product for which you could actually make claims for " efficacy " with regard to " conditions for benefit " . I think that would work. >>> Emmanuel: That's why my point was to leave it up to others, like yourself, who have a better sense of what studies are about. I always tell my students and the practitioners that attend my seminars that they can always ask me anything they want about pulse diagnosis; just never about women, money, and politics. ;-) My only serious concern about studies is to tie them in to an advertising scheme that would open acupuncture and herbs to people who haven't already tried it. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hi Jason, Read my post again. Showing " efficacy " for " conditions of benefit " is the precise language of the FDA as well as HMOs and other insurers. To make that claim that claim and then market anything, including yourself, is the hurdle of interest. My sense is that you go about it in the traditional American way. You get an organization like the AMA ... how about the AAOM? Then you lobby state and federal legislatures to have the authority to make claims. There is an entire body of literature, peer reviewed journals, in China ... alas, it's in Chinese. There's also some three dozen or more graduate institutions in America teaching CM. Quite a few are accredited on some level. So you have the curriculums, you have the national agency, you hire lobbyists, and you create a legal accommodation. As I understand it, this is the procedure for marketing oneself as a practitioner of anything, including WM. Short of that, showing " efficacy " for " conditions of benefit " will be your specific hurdle of interest. I'm sure there are an infinite number of ways to accomplish the mission that the AMA accomplished. That was about marketing and money. They did a fairly stellar job ... the FDA, Big Pharm, 125 accredited medical schools ... until the 1990s we still had hospitals, as opposed to " risk emporiums " where MDs work. Anyway, that's your mission. Go for it. I'll keep bringing in the herbs. Emmanuel Segmen - Wednesday, November 19, 2003 5:04 PM Re: Knowledge needed for AP v CHM , " Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen@i...> wrote: > Jim, > > You're scaring me a little. Seriously, I view you as a friend over these now many months of posting. > > Okay, I speak everyday with marketers and the like who want to work up some case studies that they can point to on behalf of some product. One of the problems in marketing Chinese herbal products is that they must be presented as " dietary supplements " and not as medicine. To present them as having " efficacy " with regard to any " condition for benefit " will cost you $500,000,000.00 (approximately) in research dollars plus the approval of the FDA. E, I may be wrong on this, but I see a major different between marketing a 'product' and producing research to benefit our profession and market ourselves to the public. We are not trying to market some 'CHINESE herbal product', we are merlely trying to show efficacy in certain conditions. and this is shown my decrease in symptomology (via questionnaire) or lab test values, simple as that. - > > So, okay, we have to do a few case studies and then we have to say that this herbal formula and/or acupuncture treatment made these people " feel better " ? Have different pulses? Have a different tongue presentation? We can't claim " efficacy " with regard to any " condition for benefit " and then advertise it on the Oprah Winfrey Show ... or in some magazine or newspaper. You could conduct research and report that research in a peer-reviewed journal ... but then that's not advertising your product. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Hi Jim, Make it your mission in life to make Oprah a slim, energetic, aerobic athlete well into her 60s. You'll be swimming in cash. Emmanuel Segmen Emmanuel: That's why my point was to leave it up to others, like yourself, who have a better sense of what studies are about. I always tell my students and the practitioners that attend my seminars that they can always ask me anything they want about pulse diagnosis; just never about women, money, and politics. ;-) My only serious concern about studies is to tie them in to an advertising scheme that would open acupuncture and herbs to people who haven't already tried it. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 --- " Bob Flaws " wrote: > I didn't say I saw anything wrong with these either. Is that what > you thought I was saying? > Bob --------------------------- Well, yes, that was my first impression. But as I said in a later mail, it was a slip of my mind, being triggered negatively by the use of the word placebo (which still has a very negative ring in my ears, but that's something *I* have change then), and so the whole message got a negative load in my mind. Strange thing, this human mind. Sorry if I misrepresented your words. Alwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 , <> wrote: > Are, > > This is a fascinating post. I particularly like the observation that different combinations of points seem more effective at different junctures in time than others. I like the question: is it me, or is it the horses that have changed? I think this relates to some of CHA's discussions as well about different disease patterns existing over time, and different treatments being necessary. But within the scope of a person's lifetime, what can this phenomenon be attributed to? I have observed this myself, both with my patients and with my own personal health needs as well, and it simultaneously baffles and fascinates me. Consider this: in order for a treatment plan to be effective, it would have to have originated from the correct diagnosis. It is reasonable that a person, may in time, see enough of a certain type of disorder that when presented with something similar, they jump to conclusions and are not as careful as they might have been earlier in their career. Then with a diagnosis that is not spot-on, they procede with a treatment that is not spot-on, and then wonder why the points did not work " this time " when they have worked before. I've seen practitioners " think " they had a diagnosis pegged after minimal questioning, letting their ego (sense of self as a seasoned practitioner) get in the way, all the while calling it experience, only to be just plain wrong. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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