Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 You have said that time spent on learning terms is far more well spent doing other things. This denigrates the value of studying the nomenclature and renders it as relatively less important than whatever those other things are. <<<<<There you go again, all i have said is its better for me to do it in a langue I already now than learn both the meaning of the medical terms and a new langue Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Z'ev, I hope you know your response to Wainwright is called a " red herring. " Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Does anyone remember 'barefoot doctor acupuncture'? The technique is > recorded in the now out-of-print " Barefoot Doctor's Manual " . The > technique was a 'short-order course', using very thick gauge needles on > Du mai points only along the spine and neck. > > I wonder why this technique disappeared. I speculate that perhaps > there was danger of spinal cord injury with the recommended strong > stimulus and thick needles applied to the spine. > > > On Nov 20, 2003, at 12:23 PM, wainwrightchurchill wrote: > > > This thread reminds me of a very interesting study I read about ten > > years ago (I wish I had a copy - I couldn't find it via the internet > > when I searched a few years ago), when a biomedical equivalent of > > barefoot doctor medicine was taught in Africa. The Western medicine > > barefoot doctors were given 6 months of instruction, after which their > > diagnositic skills were compared with those of fully trained doctors. > > Remarkably, the barefoot docotrs' first diagnoses were found to be > > more accurate than those of the fully trained doctors. > > > > Wainwright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 I'm wondering how > much of Bob's claim of an adaquate abreviated education is based on an herbal > prejudice that acupuncture is a musculoskeletal modality while the real (internal > diseases) deal is in the herbs? I did not practice herbs at the time. > By the way, the study I alluded to several weeks ago showed that )at least in the > Emperors clinic), acupuncture was more effective than herbs for monopausal hot > flashes. The supervising doctor was as surprised as any one. Careful. Are you sure that's what the study showed? (If so, I'm not disputing that.) But I wonder if what your study actually showed was that a particular herbal protocol was not as effective as a particular acupuncture protocol. I would be good to describe the protocol, even though that is off the topic in terms of the discussion we were having. The issue we were discussing is whether or not acupuncturists need the same aptitudes and education and those who prescribe internal medicine. So far, nothing you've said speaks to that issue. Bob > , " " <zrosenbe@s...> > wrote: > > Does anyone remember 'barefoot doctor acupuncture'? The technique is > > recorded in the now out-of-print " Barefoot Doctor's Manual " . The > > technique was a 'short-order course', using very thick gauge needles on > > Du mai points only along the spine and neck. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 You go, guy! Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Are you sure that's what the study showed? (If so, I'm not disputing that.) But I wonder if what your study actually showed was that a particular herbal protocol was not as effective as a particular acupuncture protocol. >>>I wish more people realized this difference, i am tired of hearing this or that study showed acupuncture (or herbs) do or not work alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Ken go ahead. I never said its not important to understand CM terms, i have always said the study of Chinese in worth my while alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Actually, since the acupuncture was done by student interns, now that I think about it, this proves more of your point about acupuncture and education. doug > > > By the way, the study I alluded to several weeks ago showed that )at least in the > > Emperors clinic), acupuncture was more effective than herbs for monopausal hot > > flashes. The supervising doctor was as surprised as any one. > > Careful. Are you sure that's what the study showed? (If so, I'm not disputing that.) But I wonder if what your study actually showed > was that a particular herbal protocol was not as effective as a particular acupuncture protocol. I would be good to describe the > protocol, even though that is off the topic in terms of the discussion we were having. The issue we were discussing is whether or not > acupuncturists need the same aptitudes and education and those who prescribe internal medicine. So far, nothing you've said speaks > to that issue. > > Bob > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 hearing this or that study showed acupuncture (or herbs) do or not work >>>>>Looking foward to when you are doing research. Marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 could have sworn that you used to have a whole rationale about time and the value of time and the value of learning Chinese >>>Correct, learning Chinese. I never said one should not learn terminology. About W terms i only said i hate his choices of English terms and at the same time i said his book is very important as it is the first that tries to give definition of terms, which is a place to start. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Wasn't intentional, Bob. He just reminded me of something in the Barefoot Doctor's Manual. Associative thinking. Z'ev On Nov 20, 2003, at 3:18 PM, Bob Flaws wrote: > Z'ev, > > I hope you know your response to Wainwright is called a " red herring. " > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Ken, Isn't part of the problem here that Alon is not a native English-speaker? That's not a personal criticism. It's simply a matter of fact. I'm only bringing this up to illustrate how important language skills are for communication between coprofessioals. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 Isn't part of the problem here that Alon is not a native English-speaker? That's not a personal criticism. It's simply a matter of fact. I'm only bringing this up to illustrate how important language skills are for communication between coprofessioals. >>>>that may be part of my problem with word choices in W terminology, but not as far as my opinion about learning Chinese or learning the meaning of terms in English instead Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Yes, Brian, I agree with you that this is a reasonable consideration. And while I had thought of it after I sent my post (because it is an obvious response, but not in the direction I was headed), I am wondering in still a different direction today... We work with the elements and the seasons, and I have read posts which discuss such things as " water dog " years (pardon if I am incorrectly remembering the name of this phenomenon), and so now I am wondering if the potency of the acupoints themselves vary with time of day, season, year, etc., and even if so in accordance to the element, season or year of the people we are treating. It's just an idea I had, out of my own ponderings of how big the impact of " external " phenomena can be - not only on our bodies, but also on our treatments. Has anyone read anything that might corroborate this? Has anyone else pondered this? bcataiji <bca wrote: Consider this: in order for a treatment plan to be effective, it would have to have originated from the correct diagnosis. It is reasonable that a person, may in time, see enough of a certain type of disorder that when presented with something similar, they jump to conclusions and are not as careful as they might have been earlier in their career. Then with a diagnosis that is not spot-on, they procede with a treatment that is not spot-on, and then wonder why the points did not work " this time " when they have worked before. I've seen practitioners " think " they had a diagnosis pegged after minimal questioning, letting their ego (sense of self as a seasoned practitioner) get in the way, all the while calling it experience, only to be just plain wrong. Brian C. Allen , <> wrote: > Are, > > This is a fascinating post. I particularly like the observation that different combinations of points seem more effective at different junctures in time than others. I like the question: is it me, or is it the horses that have changed? I think this relates to some of CHA's discussions as well about different disease patterns existing over time, and different treatments being necessary. But within the scope of a person's lifetime, what can this phenomenon be attributed to? I have observed this myself, both with my patients and with my own personal health needs as well, and it simultaneously baffles and fascinates me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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