Stagnation v Stasis (Zhi v Yu) - and what about Accumulation

[Guest guest]

-

" kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008

 

Saturday, November 15, 2003 12:04 PM

Re: " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what about

" Accumulation "

 

 

> I assume that these terms are not to be

> found in the four pages of glossary that

> the Eastland materia medica includes.

 

Correct. These terms are not in the glossary.

 

> So, there is no way to answer your question

> except to go to Dan and ask him which

> Chinese terms he or the other authors

> had in mind when they coined the phrases

> that remain undefined.

 

OK, is Dan on this list? If he could please just clarify the terms

" augment " , " nourish " and " benefit " , I would be so grateful. Then I would

know how big a problem this really is. Logic tells me that " benefit " is a

weaker action than either " augment " or " nourish " , but I'm guessing.

>

> We have been lied to and everything we

> know is wrong. Don't let my choice of

> words dismay. A lie is a knowing misrepresentation.

 

I don't think you can say Bensky et al knowingly misrepresented anything. As

translators, they chose English words that they thought conveyed the proper

meaning. Unfortunately, the words I have singled out don't convey enough

precision for my needs, especially when I use that text in the classroom.

>

> The act of writing a book is an act of

> knowing, and the presentation of a

> false image or impression is a lie.

> At the very least, anyone purporting

> to author a text on the subject based

> on any kind of study and experience

> ought to have recognized that the

> subject does have an extensive terminology

> and that if the terms are not defined,

> no one will likely know what they mean.

 

I would agree here.

 

> And note that there is no way out and

> that the fact that a text may be pleasantly

> " readable " and otherwise comfortable and

> user friendly doesn't help you one little

> bit at such a juncture.

 

Right.

 

> You can of course set aside the inadequate

> materials and deal with texts that

> respect you enough as a reader to

> provide you not only with clearly

> defined terms but with ways of knowing

> which Chinese terms are intended

> or, if no Chinese terms are intended,

> how the terms in question came into

> being. What do they mean?

 

Which such text do you recommend?

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

 

> Now, here is a question for the group: I have been unable to find

out the

> differences among the terms " benefit the yin " , " nourish the yin " , and

> " augment the yin " as used by Dan Bensky in the Materia Medica. I

think this

> came up a couple of weeks ago. But does anyone know what Chinese

terms these

> three actions are based on, and how they relate to one another? If

an herb

> " augments the yin " , is it " nourishing the yin " as well?

 

I cannot help you with " nourish, " but Bensky does have augment and

benefit in his glossery, though in other context. Bensky may have

used those words to represent other characters as well, so what I have

below may be off base. There is no way of knowing without talking to

Bensky.

 

benefit:

li dan - benefit Gallbladder

Bensky's character for li(4) is what Wiseman calls disinhibit (pg.135

PD) as has to do with promoting favorable movement

 

augment:

yi qi - augment qi

Bensky's character for yi(4) is what Wiseman calls boost (pg.47 PD);

Wiseman does not go into detail beyond that it is a type of

supplement(ation) (pg.592 PD) that is used in context with qi, the

Spleen, and occasionally yin

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Brian, that is very helpful.

 

Where in Bensky did you find " li dan " -- benefits gallbladder -- with the

Chinese character that led you to Wiseman's " disinhibit " ?

 

Now, if we look at the entry for Ren Shen, page 314 of Revised Edition, we

see that Ren Shen " benefits the heart qi and calms the spirit " -- would he

mean here that Ren Shen " disinhibits " and promotes favorable movement of

heart qi? I don't think so. I think he must mean here that it strengthens

the heart qi. So is he using " benefit " to mean " li " in some cases, but to

mean something else in others?

 

Julie

 

-

" bcataiji " <bca

 

Saturday, November 15, 2003 12:53 PM

Re: " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what about

" Accumulation "

 

 

> I cannot help you with " nourish, " but Bensky does have augment and

> benefit in his glossery, though in other context. Bensky may have

> used those words to represent other characters as well, so what I have

> below may be off base. There is no way of knowing without talking to

> Bensky.

>

> benefit:

> li dan - benefit Gallbladder

> Bensky's character for li(4) is what Wiseman calls disinhibit (pg.135

> PD) as has to do with promoting favorable movement

>

> augment:

> yi qi - augment qi

> Bensky's character for yi(4) is what Wiseman calls boost (pg.47 PD);

> Wiseman does not go into detail beyond that it is a type of

> supplement(ation) (pg.592 PD) that is used in context with qi, the

> Spleen, and occasionally yin

>

> Brian C. Allen

>

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

> Thank you, Brian, that is very helpful.

>

> Where in Bensky did you find " li dan " -- benefits gallbladder --

with the

> Chinese character that led you to Wiseman's " disinhibit " ?

 

on the bottom of the 1st column of pg. 472 of the revised Materia Medica

 

 

> Now, if we look at the entry for Ren Shen, page 314 of Revised

Edition, we

> see that Ren Shen " benefits the heart qi and calms the spirit " --

would he

> mean here that Ren Shen " disinhibits " and promotes favorable movement of

> heart qi? I don't think so. I think he must mean here that it

strengthens

> the heart qi. So is he using " benefit " to mean " li " in some cases,

but to

> mean something else in others?

 

That is one of the issues I raised in my previous post. I am not

certain that Bensky is consistent with his choice of terms. So, it

could be that " benefit " the Heart could be a different character than

benefit (li) the Gallbladder.

 

I still have trouble with the Bensky terms. What is worse is that CA

State exam and the National Exam hang onto Bensky's every word in

regards to herbology. They do not care if we understand. They just

want us to parrot words from memory as if they were gospel.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

Brian,

 

When you said Bensky's " benefit " corresponded to the " li " that Wiseman calls

" disinhibiting " , are you sure you were not looking at the character for " li "

that Bensky calls " regulate " ? The " li " for " benefit " has the fourth tone,

while the " li " for " regulate " has the third tone. This would clear up the

meaning of Ren Shen's benefitting the heart qi, that I mentioned earlier

today.

 

Julie

 

-

" bcataiji " <bca

 

Saturday, November 15, 2003 1:26 PM

Re: " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what about

" Accumulation "

>

> I still have trouble with the Bensky terms. What is worse is that CA

> State exam and the National Exam hang onto Bensky's every word in

> regards to herbology. They do not care if we understand. They just

> want us to parrot words from memory as if they were gospel.

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

 

Bensky's Materia Medica does contain a PinYin/English Cross-Reference of

Actions, where all the terms I have been questioning are listed with their

Chinese characters. I cannot believe I had not seen this. I was only looking

in the glossary.

I even found " augment " ( " yi4 " )...I apologize for my earlier questions and

confusion. Now I just need to look up " yi4 " (o where?) to see what

(someone!) thinks it means.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

> Brian,

>

> When you said Bensky's " benefit " corresponded to the " li " that

Wiseman calls

> " disinhibiting " , are you sure you were not looking at the character

for " li "

> that Bensky calls " regulate " ? The " li " for " benefit " has the fourth

tone,

> while the " li " for " regulate " has the third tone. This would clear

up the

> meaning of Ren Shen's benefitting the heart qi, that I mentioned earlier

> today.

>

No, I doubled checked what I was doing.

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

> Dear Group,

>

> Bensky's Materia Medica does contain a PinYin/English Cross-Reference of

> Actions, where all the terms I have been questioning are listed with

their

> Chinese characters. I cannot believe I had not seen this. I was only

looking

> in the glossary.

> I even found " augment " ( " yi4 " )...I apologize for my earlier

questions and

> confusion. Now I just need to look up " yi4 " (o where?) to see what

> (someone!) thinks it means.

>

> Julie

 

Refer to my previous post to you regarding augment.

 

I had wrote:

 

augment:

yi qi - augment qi

Bensky's character for yi(4) is what Wiseman calls boost (pg.47 PD);

Wiseman does not go into detail beyond that it is a type of

supplement(ation) (pg.592 PD) that is used in context with qi, the

Spleen, and occasionally yin

 

Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

?

 

li 4 does seem to be how Wiseman says disinhibit. However 2 dictionaries I've

consulted have more of the meaning of " benefit " . But Wiseman knows what he is

doing, he is a linguist, I'm not. There are a number of papers by him on the CHA

list.

Perhaps by going through those we can find out why he chose the word he did.

doug

 

 

, " bcataiji " <bca@o...> wrote:

> , Julie Chambers <info@j...>

> wrote:

> > Dear Group,

> >

> > Bensky's Materia Medica does contain a PinYin/English Cross-Reference of

> > Actions, where all the terms I have been questioning are listed with

> their

> > Chinese characters. I cannot believe I had not seen this. I was only

> looking

> > in the glossary.

> > I even found " augment " ( " yi4 " )...I apologize for my earlier

> questions and

> > confusion. Now I just need to look up " yi4 " (o where?) to see what

> > (someone!) thinks it means.

> >

> > Julie

>

> Refer to my previous post to you regarding augment.

>

> I had wrote:

>

> augment:

> yi qi - augment qi

> Bensky's character for yi(4) is what Wiseman calls boost (pg.47 PD);

> Wiseman does not go into detail beyond that it is a type of

> supplement(ation) (pg.592 PD) that is used in context with qi, the

> Spleen, and occasionally yin

>

> Brian C. Allen

[Guest guest]

November 16, 2003

 

Dear Julie,

 

I am referring to subchapter 4 ' Zi yin yao' of Chapter 15

of the Chinese text Zhong Cao Yao Xue published by the

Shanghai TCM Academy (l983, p.571)) which i think was one of

the orignal Chinese texts from which Dan Bensky compiled and

translated his text..

 

The Chinese text states:

 

" Zi Yin yao are also referred to as yang yin yao or bu yin

yao. That is they are yao (materia medica) designed to be

used to treat yin xu disease conditions bing zheng. These

materia medica have the therapeutic effect of moistening

kidney yin ( zi shen yin) ; tonifying lung yin( bu fei yin);

nurturing stomach yin (yang wei yin); and benefiting liver

yin (yi gan yin) "

 

From the above quote we can deduce that

 

Zi yin means 'moistening the yin'

 

yang yin is nurturing the yin

 

bu yin is ' tonifying the yin'

 

yi gan yin is 'benefitting or tonifying liver yin

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Julie Chambers

<info@j...> wrote:

> Dear Phil,

>

> Well, Ken gave a long answer to your question. I'll just add my

comment on

> " stagnation " vs " stasis " and that is:

>

> I teach herbs. In the category of " herbs that invigorate the

blood " there

> are many, many herbs to teach, and it is helpful to group them

into

> subcategories according to how strongly they move blood,

dispel stasis, or

> " break " blood. Using the Practical Dictionary, I show my

students the

> difference between " stagnation " and " stasis " and then when I

talk about the

> herbs, I show them which ones are milder, and can

" harmonize " blood and

> which ones are stronger to " invigorate " and " break " blood.

>

> So I think it IS important to note the differences in terminology

because

> this leads you to a better understanding of the herbs and their

actions.

>

> Now, here is a question for the group: I have been unable to

find out the

> differences among the terms " benefit the yin " , " nourish the yin " ,

and

> " augment the yin " as used by Dan Bensky in the Materia

Medica. I think this

> came up a couple of weeks ago. But does anyone know what

Chinese terms these

> three actions are based on, and how they relate to one

another? If an herb

> " augments the yin " , is it " nourishing the yin " as well?

>

> Julie

>

> -

> " " <@e...>

>

> Saturday, November 15, 2003 7:51 AM

> " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what

about

> " Accumulation "

>

>

> >

> >

> > Does this really matter? MUST one keep these distinctions in

mind

> > when deciding on specific Dx or Tx?

> >

> > I would appreciate guidance here!

[Guest guest]

November 16, 2003

 

Dear Julie,

 

I am referring to subchapter 4 ' Zi yin yao' of Chapter 15

of the Chinese text Zhong Cao Yao Xue published by the

Shanghai TCM Academy (l983, p.571)) which i think was one of

the orignal Chinese texts from which Dan Bensky compiled and

translated his text..

 

The Chinese text states:

 

" Zi Yin yao are also referred to as yang yin yao or bu yin

yao. That is they are yao (materia medica) designed to be

used to treat yin xu disease conditions bing zheng. These

materia medica have the therapeutic effect of moistening

kidney yin ( zi shen yin) ; tonifying lung yin( bu fei yin);

nurturing stomach yin (yang wei yin); and benefiting liver

yin (yi gan yin) "

 

From the above quote we can deduce that

 

Zi yin means 'moistening the yin'

 

yang yin is nurturing the yin

 

bu yin is ' tonifying the yin'

 

yi gan yin is 'benefitting or tonifying liver yin

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Julie Chambers

<info@j...> wrote:

> Dear Phil,

>

> Well, Ken gave a long answer to your question. I'll just add my

comment on

> " stagnation " vs " stasis " and that is:

>

> I teach herbs. In the category of " herbs that invigorate the

blood " there

> are many, many herbs to teach, and it is helpful to group them

into

> subcategories according to how strongly they move blood,

dispel stasis, or

> " break " blood. Using the Practical Dictionary, I show my

students the

> difference between " stagnation " and " stasis " and then when I

talk about the

> herbs, I show them which ones are milder, and can

" harmonize " blood and

> which ones are stronger to " invigorate " and " break " blood.

>

> So I think it IS important to note the differences in terminology

because

> this leads you to a better understanding of the herbs and their

actions.

>

> Now, here is a question for the group: I have been unable to

find out the

> differences among the terms " benefit the yin " , " nourish the yin " ,

and

> " augment the yin " as used by Dan Bensky in the Materia

Medica. I think this

> came up a couple of weeks ago. But does anyone know what

Chinese terms these

> three actions are based on, and how they relate to one

another? If an herb

> " augments the yin " , is it " nourishing the yin " as well?

>

> Julie

>

> -

> " " <@e...>

>

> Saturday, November 15, 2003 7:51 AM

> " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what

about

> " Accumulation "

>

>

> >

> >

> > Does this really matter? MUST one keep these distinctions in

mind

> > when deciding on specific Dx or Tx?

> >

> > I would appreciate guidance here!

[Guest guest]

Rey,

 

This seems to imply that the terms are Zang/Fu dependent.

In other words, one would not necessarily say " moistening liver yin "

or " nurturing lung yin " . Is that right?

 

Thanks,

 

Fernando

 

 

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...>

wrote:

> November 16, 2003

>

> Dear Julie,

>

> I am referring to subchapter 4 ' Zi yin yao' of Chapter 15

> of the Chinese text Zhong Cao Yao Xue published by the

> Shanghai TCM Academy (l983, p.571)) which i think was one of

> the orignal Chinese texts from which Dan Bensky compiled and

> translated his text..

>

> The Chinese text states:

>

> " Zi Yin yao are also referred to as yang yin yao or bu yin

> yao. That is they are yao (materia medica) designed to be

> used to treat yin xu disease conditions bing zheng. These

> materia medica have the therapeutic effect of moistening

> kidney yin ( zi shen yin) ; tonifying lung yin( bu fei yin);

> nurturing stomach yin (yang wei yin); and benefiting liver

> yin (yi gan yin) "

>

> From the above quote we can deduce that

>

> Zi yin means 'moistening the yin'

>

> yang yin is nurturing the yin

>

> bu yin is ' tonifying the yin'

>

> yi gan yin is 'benefitting or tonifying liver yin

>

> Regards,

>

> Rey Tiquia

[Guest guest]

Hi Fernando,

It's been a while since we 'conversed'. Back to your querry, I

think the terms are not only zang/fu depended , but are also

clinical pattern or zheng hou dependent. as in nourishing,

nurturing or tonifying a deficient, undernourished or dry Yin zang

organs (storing internal organs as in the five zang) or yang fu

organs (transmission internal organs as isn the 6 fu ) .

 

Regards,

 

Rey tiquia

 

 

, " Fernando

Bernall " <fbernall> wrote:

> Rey,

>

> This seems to imply that the terms are Zang/Fu dependent.

> In other words, one would not necessarily say " moistening liver

yin "

> or " nurturing lung yin " . Is that right?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Fernando

>

>

> , " rey tiquia " <

rey@a...>

> wrote:

> > November 16, 2003

> >

> > Dear Julie,

> >

> > I am referring to subchapter 4 ' Zi yin yao' of Chapter 15

> > of the Chinese text Zhong Cao Yao Xue published by the

> > Shanghai TCM Academy (l983, p.571)) which i think was one

of

> > the orignal Chinese texts from which Dan Bensky compiled

and

> > translated his text..

> >

> > The Chinese text states:

> >

> > " Zi Yin yao are also referred to as yang yin yao or bu yin

> > yao. That is they are yao (materia medica) designed to be

> > used to treat yin xu disease conditions bing zheng. These

> > materia medica have the therapeutic effect of moistening

> > kidney yin ( zi shen yin) ; tonifying lung yin( bu fei yin);

> > nurturing stomach yin (yang wei yin); and benefiting liver

> > yin (yi gan yin) "

> >

> > From the above quote we can deduce that

> >

> > Zi yin means 'moistening the yin'

> >

> > yang yin is nurturing the yin

> >

> > bu yin is ' tonifying the yin'

> >

> > yi gan yin is 'benefitting or tonifying liver yin

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Rey Tiquia

[Guest guest]

-

" kenrose2008 " <kenrose2008

 

Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:19 PM

Re: " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what about

" Accumulation "

 

 

> If you read the introduction to the glossary

> of the first edition of the Materia Medica

> you are talking about, you will find the

> authors' statement about nomenclature.

 

Julie replies:

 

I will look that up, since I have the first and second editions.

 

> A decision was made somewhere along

> the line not to bother with much in the

> way of terminology, explanations thereof.

> The rationale is provided in the first edition

> and subsequently edited from the book.

 

> But look what an uphill battle it has been

> to get people to see that the meanings of

> the words matter. Do you remember the

> tenor of the arguments a couple of years

> ago?

 

No, I don't, but others probably do.

>

> If someone were to walk up to you and

> tell you that Chinese medicine has no

> technical terminology that require definition

> in order to be understood, what would

> you call that statement?

>

I would call that mistaken.

 

> What would you call it if the person claimed

> to be an expert in TCM?

 

Still mistaken.

>

> Would you have the same attitude about

> hearing such a statement today as you

> did ten years ago?

 

Ten years ago, I knew nothing about such things. Now that I am teaching, I

am paying more attention to my lack of knowledge of the finer points of

terminology.

>

> If it's different today, why is it different?

 

For me, it is different because my knowledge is greater, therefore my

deficiencies are more visible. I now know that there is much I don't know.

Thankfully, my students are asking me questions I did not ask my teachers.

>

> These are not rhetorical questions. I'm

> curious to know the answers.

>

These are my answers, I don't know what others think.

 

Julie

[Guest guest]

Rey

 

Thanks for your very clear response. I think this recent discussion on

terminology, better than any long discourse on ideas and opinions, validates

Ken's tirades. In less than 20 posts, we saw a real, concrete example of how

clarity on the Chinese terminology can give significant clinical insight.

 

Rectify the names.

 

respectfully,

Jason Robertson

 

 

 

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

 

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

 

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

 

 

 

 

Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with Jason. I find this type of exchange so much more useful than

what has been going on here lately, and I really thank those who provided

specific information about the terms.

 

By the way, Jason, why is your email address called " kentuckyginseng " ? Are

you in Kentucky? Are you associated with a ginseng farm by any chance?

 

Julie

 

-

" Jason Robertson " <kentuckyginseng

 

Saturday, November 15, 2003 6:48 PM

Re: " Stagnation " v " Stasis " (Zhi v Yu) - and what about

" Accumulation "

 

 

> Rey

>

> Thanks for your very clear response. I think this recent discussion on

terminology, better than any long discourse on ideas and opinions, validates

Ken's tirades. In less than 20 posts, we saw a real, concrete example of

how clarity on the Chinese terminology can give significant clinical

insight.

>

> Rectify the names.

>

> respectfully,

> Jason Robertson

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I think TCM practitioners in the West are deepening their

understanding of Chinese medicine especially as it relates to

the cultural environs that they are in. Hence the expectations of

rigour in technical terminology . We cannot just depend upon the

translation/interpretations of others. in this sense, we can see

the importance of Ken's repeated comments on the essential

need for study of classical Chinese .

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

 

 

 

, Jason

Robertson <kentuckyginseng> wrote:

> Rey

>

> Thanks for your very clear response. I think this recent

discussion on terminology, better than any long discourse on

ideas and opinions, validates Ken's tirades. In less than 20

posts, we saw a real, concrete example of how clarity on the

Chinese terminology can give significant clinical insight.

>

> Rectify the names.

>

> respectfully,

> Jason Robertson

>

>

>

> Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

> Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

>

> Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

>

> home-86-010-8405-0531

> cell- 86-010-13520155800

>

>

>

>

> Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

>

>

[Guest guest]

Before we let this moment of clarity slip away, does anyone want to take a shot

at

some examples? How would these herbs be used in the lung? (Parenthesis are from

the Jiao Shu de translation.) Bai he, mai men dong (enrich yin and moisten), Sha

Shen

(nourish yin, moisten lung), Bai wei ( " boosts yin " and " clears GI vacuity

heat " )

 

My other question would be can an herb nuture one organ but tonify another?

doug

 

 

, " rey tiquia " <rey@a...> wrote:

>

> Hi Fernando,

> It's been a while since we 'conversed'. Back to your querry, I

> think the terms are not only zang/fu depended , but are also

> clinical pattern or zheng hou dependent. as in nourishing,

> nurturing or tonifying a deficient, undernourished or dry Yin zang

> organs (storing internal organs as in the five zang) or yang fu

> organs (transmission internal organs as isn the 6 fu ) .

>

> Regards,

>

> Rey tiquia

>

>

> , " Fernando

> Bernall " <fbernall> wrote:

> > Rey,

> >

> > This seems to imply that the terms are Zang/Fu dependent.

> > In other words, one would not necessarily say " moistening liver

> yin "

> > or " nurturing lung yin " . Is that right?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Fernando

> >

> >

> > , " rey tiquia " <

> rey@a...>

> > wrote:

> > > November 16, 2003

> > >

> > > Dear Julie,

> > >

> > > I am referring to subchapter 4 ' Zi yin yao' of Chapter 15

> > > of the Chinese text Zhong Cao Yao Xue published by the

> > > Shanghai TCM Academy (l983, p.571)) which i think was one

> of

> > > the orignal Chinese texts from which Dan Bensky compiled

> and

> > > translated his text..

> > >

> > > The Chinese text states:

> > >

> > > " Zi Yin yao are also referred to as yang yin yao or bu yin

> > > yao. That is they are yao (materia medica) designed to be

> > > used to treat yin xu disease conditions bing zheng. These

> > > materia medica have the therapeutic effect of moistening

> > > kidney yin ( zi shen yin) ; tonifying lung yin( bu fei yin);

> > > nurturing stomach yin (yang wei yin); and benefiting liver

> > > yin (yi gan yin) "

> > >

> > > From the above quote we can deduce that

> > >

> > > Zi yin means 'moistening the yin'

> > >

> > > yang yin is nurturing the yin

> > >

> > > bu yin is ' tonifying the yin'

> > >

> > > yi gan yin is 'benefitting or tonifying liver yin

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Rey Tiquia

[Guest guest]

Dear Doug,

 

I do not have the English translation of Jiao Shu De's book.

However, I have before me the original Chinese text " The Ten

Lectures on the Fruits of Study in the Use of Materia Medica "

Yong Yao Xin De Shi Jiang (People's Health Publishing House

1979).

 

The English translation (if it was a translation of this Chinese

book i have ) must contain the the information you require on the

use of these materia medica vis-a-vis the lungs.

 

As for your other querry, I think that a herb which nurture

'yang Yin' one organ can also be used to tonify 'bu yin' another

expecially if the yin is the main target of tonification.

 

Regards,

 

Rey Tiquia

[Guest guest]

While I agree with you, I think that enough people in our profession

know enough about term choices and glossaries to hopefully demand more

from authors in the future. Many of the books we've critiqued on this

list are several years old already. Hopefully, the newer editions of

such texts as the Eastland materia medica will have a more extensive

glossary. I am optimistic that we will be seeing improvements in new

books as they are released. The general awareness level of the

profession is higher than it was ten years ago.

 

This is one reason I hope that we will also see digitized data bases of

information on Chinese medicine in the future. They can be updated

more frequently than new editions several years apart.

 

This situation has also made me reluctant to release a finished text.

I fear it will need updating as I continue to grow and learn, and as I

get feedback from readers.

 

 

On Nov 15, 2003, at 11:04 AM, kenrose2008 wrote:

 

> I assume that these terms are not to be

> found in the four pages of glossary that

> the Eastland materia medica includes.

> So, there is no way to answer your question

> except to go to Dan and ask him which

> Chinese terms he or the other authors

> had in mind when they coined the phrases

> that remain undefined.

[Guest guest]

Julie

 

My e-mail address is kentuckyginseng because that's where the roots are.

Nevertheless, I'm in Beijing and don't plan to return to those roots anytime

soon. I had a private clinic in Louisville for two years before coming back to

China in 2002. There is quite a difference between practicing CM in a state

that has no license (I worked in the grey area; having a California license) and

coming to China where Chinese medicine literally flows onto the floors of the

grocery store. On the other hand in China people think that, because I'm from

Kentucky, I automatically know alot about chicken.

 

Jason Robertson

 

 

 

Jason Robertson, L.Ac.

Ju Er Hu Tong 19 Hao Yuan 223 Shi

 

Beijing, Peoples Republic of China

 

home-86-010-8405-0531

cell- 86-010-13520155800

 

 

 

 

Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

 

>

> This situation has also made me reluctant to release a finished

text.

> I fear it will need updating as I continue to grow and learn, and

as I

> get feedback from readers.

>

>

>

 

Z'ev,

 

Please don't let this hold you back. I have no doubt that any book

from you would not only be a welcome addition to the literature, but

would maintain its relevance for quite some time. And if it needs

updating in the future, then you can publish a revised edition.

 

robert hayden

[Guest guest]

, Julie Chambers <info@j...>

wrote:

> Dear Phil,

>

> Well, Ken gave a long answer to your question. I'll just add my

comment on

> " stagnation " vs " stasis " and that is:

>

> I teach herbs. In the category of " herbs that invigorate the blood "

there

> are many, many herbs to teach, and it is helpful to group them into

> subcategories according to how strongly they move blood, dispel

stasis, or

> " break " blood. Using the Practical Dictionary, I show my students

the

> difference between " stagnation " and " stasis " and then when I talk

about the

> herbs, I show them which ones are milder, and can " harmonize " blood

and

> which ones are stronger to " invigorate " and " break " blood.

>

> So I think it IS important to note the differences in terminology

because

> this leads you to a better understanding of the herbs and their

actions.

 

 

I agree that there is clear clinical importance between the terms

stag and stasis, but in regard to differentiations of the herbs

that `invigorate' blood where do you get `your' impressions/ sources

of the relative strength of these herbs in relation to the

terminology. I think it is Bensky that says, that at least in his

book, he does not make any real distinctions between the terms. In

my limited experience many Chinese authors use the terms loosely,

which comes back to once again terminology issues. I think this is

one reason that Bensky doesn't attribute a specific hierarchy to the

terms, as well as possible debate on the actual strength of the herbs

(but I cannot speak for him)… Furthermore, this touches upon a

potential downfall when getting over obsessed with terminology.

I.e. Reading into the terminology more than we should. When the

Chinese sources are not standardized but we have this dictionary of

standardized terms, it can be real easy to make clear

differentiations when things are not so… I am not saying this is the

case with everything in regard to blood invigorators, just some.

That is why I am curious to where you draw your information… Comments?

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> I.e. Reading into the terminology more than we should. When the

> Chinese sources are not standardized but we have this dictionary

of standardized terms, it can be real easy to make clear

> differentiations when things are not so… I am not saying this is

the case with everything in regard to blood invigorators, just some.

That is why I am curious to where you draw your information.

Comments? >>>

 

 

 

Jason:

 

Excellent point---and one always overlooked!

 

Always using Wiseman terms imposes a standard on the Chinese

material that did not really exist beforehand. Which is not a

problem if we think of it that way. It can be a practical conceit

for teaching beginners. But to say that we are always conveying the

original or real Chinese meaning each time we use it would be

incorrent.

 

I can appreciate that Flaws and others are trying to " find " some

precision in the Chinese literature; it's a strong argument for

using Wiseman. But instead they are imposing exactness or precision

where there is none---a typical Western sensibility.

 

That is why including the original Chinese in publication is so

important; everything is above board and opens the original to

inspection and interpretation by everyone. Translations should

primarily be judged on the merit of their conveying meaning.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " " <@h...> =

 

wrote:

 

In

> my limited experience many Chinese authors use the terms loosely,

> which comes back to once again terminology issues. I think this is

> one reason that Bensky doesn't attribute a specific hierarchy to the

> terms, as well as possible debate on the actual strength of the herbs

> (but I cannot speak for him)… Furthermore, this touches upon a

> potential downfall when getting over obsessed with terminology.

 

Bob Damone and Tan tan huang were discussing a passage was translating the =

 

other day and Bob pointed out that the author used the term xue zhi instead=

of

xue yu (blood stag and blod stasis). Bob said this was not uncommon and he=

 

was starting to think that the chinese themselves are not so precise with t=

heir

own terms (as Bensky has always stated). Tan tan quickly confirmed that on=

e

frequently saw this kind of looseness and that there was no difference in

meaning. Tantan also said that the tendency to list tx principles in four =

word

paired couplets typically has nothing to do with more clinical precison, bu=

t it

rather a literary device that demands paired couplets. Tan tan is an exper=

t in

chinese literature and said this is common knowledge amongst educated

chinese. so the expression, huo xue, hua yu has no greater significance th=

an

just saying huo xue. He thinks Bensky is clear and correct about the term =

 

issue.