Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Everybody, There is nothing wrong with the spirit of the conversation. There is nothing wrong here. A spirited argument in which people give voice to their usually more well restrained thoughts and feelings is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am willing to bet that I am the most maligned individual on the list over the longest period of time. I have a collection of the various epithets and malevolent adjectives that have been hurled at me. And I can report to friend and foe alike that I am just fine, thanks for your heartfelt concern everyone. All my limbs remain attached although one young fellow tried to pull my left arm off this past Saturday and it still hurts. It's a very good and very important thing that we all get to see who we really are. How else will you know who to trust? I learned long ago that I can't rely on words, on what someone says in order to evaluate people, especially people who are going to play any kind of important role in my life. And the role of information source in this field is a pretty important one in my book anyhow. Now this CHA discussion could not possibly stand as the sole medium for growth and development, either of an individual or of a group. All we trade in here is words. But we can engage one another on the level of thought and emotion and spirit. I find the whole exercise intensely spiritual as a matter of fact. And when the volume goes up or when the volume goes down, if I get quiet and listen to what people are saying I hear some pretty interesting stuff. And I think that the practice of Chinese medicine begins and ends in listening to people, looking at people, basic sensory experiences. So the whole drill is very educational, for me, anyway. I find it very enlightening, for example that Todd will no longer speak to me. I find it very enlightening that when his back is up against the wall, Alon grumbles about masturbation. People should be encouraged to express themselves. Come on folks. Express yourselves. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 For me, there is, Ken. When spirited discussions become overly personal, and people feel violated, no one listens any more. They just defend their turf, usually by lashing out. It is all too human. On Nov 17, 2003, at 11:13 AM, kenrose2008 wrote: > Everybody, > > There is nothing wrong with the spirit > of the conversation. > > There is nothing wrong here. > > A spirited argument in which people > give voice to their usually more > well restrained thoughts and feelings > is a good thing, not a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 I find it very enlightening that when > his back is up against the wall, Alon > grumbles about masturbation. >>>>>>>>I find it interesting that you see about 1 inch from your nose and no farther. Until one will agree with you you will continue to self " righteously " justify your rational. Well it is ok with me. But i will wait for more than words to support these positions. Again if any of you are willing to show the benefit clinically i will their next week. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Actually, what you are suggesting is not such a bad idea. Unfortunately, my clinical setup is too small for observers in this manner, but I think a space, perhaps at a meeting like the CHA, could be set aside and we could share our styles of herbal prescribing and acupuncture treatment in an open, friendly manner. This has never been done, and I think it would take the discourse on this group and in the profession to a new level. Seeing how we all actually work. I have little idea how you, Todd or several others in the group actually diagnose and treat patients. I know this is difficult. At my lecture at Pacific Symposium, I tried to share my case histories and treatment strategies, but it is not easy to do without the actual patients there. On Nov 17, 2003, at 12:51 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: >>>>>>>>> But i will wait for more than words to support these >>>>>>>>> positions. Again if any of you are willing to show the benefit >>>>>>>>> clinically i will their next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 My concern, at least in a typical 'Western' encounter, unlike your example of a taiji student-teacher encounter, is that there has to be a level of agreement before such dialogue can take place. Like two sumo wrestlers bowing to each other before they enter the ring. Otherwise, people just shrink away when they are confronted with baring themselves in public. On Nov 17, 2003, at 1:23 PM, kenrose2008 wrote: > So you see? He and I can read each > other's minds. That's what I mean > when I say that there's nothing > wrong with the spirit of the conversation. > I mean that in the exchange, even > of unpleasantries, something is > or at least can be gained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Great idea, Ken. We should call it the Werner Heisenberg Memorial Theater, and be sure to document with exacting precision the variations in efficacy of a given treatment style based on who is observing whom. And call this new research paradigm the Intentionally Uncontrolled Multiply-visioned Study. Simcha , " kenrose2008 " < kenrose2008> wrote: > But anyhow, I like the idea of > building up a clinical setting > where people's various...especially > opposing ideas can be viewed in > the context of what does really > result in results. > > And I will undertake to build such > a stadium. According to Reagan era > fantasies, if you build it, they > will come. > > So let's see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 And I have to admit that despite appearances I feel quite close to Alon...and we've never even met. You know what? I bet he'll say the same thing. >>>>Correct and i bet we get along greatly Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Great idea, Ken. We should call it the Werner Heisenberg Memorial Theater, and be sure to document with exacting precision the variations in efficacy of a given treatment style based on who is observing whom. And call this new research paradigm the Intentionally Uncontrolled Multiply-visioned Study. Simcha >>>>>>>The problem is that we need time, one encounter will mean nothing alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 So, we'll do it again. The great CHA bake-off and sale. Z'ev On Nov 17, 2003, at 2:00 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > Great idea, Ken. We should call it the Werner Heisenberg Memorial > Theater, > and be sure to document with exacting precision the variations in > efficacy of a > given treatment style based on who is observing whom. And call this > new > research paradigm the Intentionally Uncontrolled Multiply-visioned > Study. > > Simcha >>>>>>>> The problem is that we need time, one encounter will mean >>>>>>>> nothing > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Simcha, Since you named the theater, please include Heisenberg's " fall of parity " as a prerequisite. These is no sign of life without asymmetry or paradoxical outcomes. ;-) In gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen - simchagottlieb Monday, November 17, 2003 1:53 PM Re: The spirit of the conversation Great idea, Ken. We should call it the Werner Heisenberg Memorial Theater, and be sure to document with exacting precision the variations in efficacy of a given treatment style based on who is observing whom. And call this new research paradigm the Intentionally Uncontrolled Multiply-visioned Study. Simcha , " kenrose2008 " < kenrose2008> wrote: > But anyhow, I like the idea of > building up a clinical setting > where people's various...especially > opposing ideas can be viewed in > the context of what does really > result in results. > > And I will undertake to build such > a stadium. According to Reagan era > fantasies, if you build it, they > will come. > > So let's see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Hey, I've gotten to treat pop stars before Really rad, man. Z.R. On Nov 17, 2003, at 5:12 PM, kenrose2008 wrote: > I've had a chance to watch > a little MTV lately, and I think > that if we package this the > right way and get a couple of > scantily clad young men and women > covered with acupuncture needles > we can carve a little niche in > the pop scene, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 I'm going to set up this Herzog Heinsenweenie Memorial Theatre of the Relentlessly Absurd and you can come and prove yourself into infinity. And, if you get good reviews and the box is strong and the show has legs, we'll take it on the road. >>>>Sounds fun alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Ken, You've got it. At the beginning of class a few weeks ago a very nice, highly pierced/tattooed young woman came up to me to ask about getting an excused absence for an upcoming event. I was just inserting a needle into LI-4 (Hegu) on my left hand ... illegally I might add, but hey I'm an anatomist. She freaked out, and I pointed out to her that she was covered with piercings and tattoos. She pointed out to me that needles freak her out. Well, at any rate, the event brought us into a deeper harmony, and she seems more at ease with me despite my being her instructor. But I believe you actually have a grasped a key here. Ask Shereen Kanehisa some time about her acupuncture as art. With her masters of fine arts in sculpture, she often indicates that her acupuncture is " limited time installations " . I really don't mean to make light of acupuncture here ... though Shereen's comments were brilliantly funny. I really do mean that Jason's valid point regarding America's ignorance of CM might need an artistic nudge. MTV, indeed. Emmanuel Segmen - kenrose2008 Monday, November 17, 2003 5:12 PM Re: The spirit of the conversation Simcha, As long as you can deal with a constantly changing name, we're as good as done. I've had a chance to watch a little MTV lately, and I think that if we package this the right way and get a couple of scantily clad young men and women covered with acupuncture needles we can carve a little niche in the pop scene, too. You see how much fun we can have if people just take a little of the restraint off. That's why I love Alon! He doesn't get hung up in all that restraint. I know he must be a wonderful clinician because he is so direct in his approach and his qi is so well focused. And I've never laid eyes on him. I hope we can succeed at getting him to come and operate, or perform or whatever. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Ken: Who knows, we could be on B'dwy by 2012 when the world ends. Marco: Not sure if you are refering to the Maya calender more comenly know as a " Maya prophesise " it appearsz like a mis representation of contextual meaning. This contextual meaning seams to be more realting to the big wheel day/time cycle is coming to an end btween 2012 and a new big wheel day/time cycle is begining... just an example that context and meaning is vitial to understanding... Marco > > >>>>>>>The problem is that we need time, one encounter will > mean nothing > > Of course I don't agree. One encounter > means everything. One is a lot. A whole > lot. > > Ken > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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