Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Hi All, I am using these 2 medicinals for the first time and would like some input from some experienced herbalist's. I have a patient on these herbs as part of a formula for a patient with liver wind - hand, arm, head tremors for the past 30 years. He has been on them for 2 weeks now (.9g each 5:1 powder extract) and his tremors are almost gone, however, If he misses a dose they come right back, how long can I keep him on these herbs safely?? He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi in place of wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, but not complete. Complete formula: Bai Zhu Fu Ling Dang Gui Chi Shao Gou Teng Tian Ma Quan Xie Wu Gong Huang Qin Huang Bai Sheng Di Mai Men Dong Ban Xia Looking forward to your feedback. Cheers, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2003 Report Share Posted November 21, 2003 He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi in place of wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, but not complete. Complete formula: Bai Zhu Fu Ling Dang Gui Chi Shao Gou Teng Tian Ma Quan Xie Wu Gong Huang Qin Huang Bai Sheng Di Mai Men Dong Ban Xia >>>>>>Are you mixing single herbs for this formula? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hi Alon, I am using KPC 5:1 powder extracts, yes I am mixing them from single herbs. I have added the doses for you. - ALON MARCUS Friday, November 21, 2003 5:31 PM Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi in place of wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, but not complete. Complete formula: Bai Zhu .9 grams Fu Ling .9 Dang Gui .6 Chi Shao .6 Gou Teng .9 Tian Ma .9 Quan Xie .6 Wu Gong .6 Huang Qin .6 Huang Bai .3 Sheng Di .9 Mai Dong .6 Ban Xia .3 >>>>>>Are you mixing single herbs for this formula? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Hi David, Yes, my dx for main complaint is liver wind from xu liver yin and blood. Here are the highlights: 44 year old male Hand tremors which when stressed are worse and includes head tremors - past 34 years eyes - floaters, spots dizzy spells 1-2 x per week, afternoon no nausea occasional tinnitus, 1-2x per month in the morning very dry, cracked finger nails body temp - runs warm dry mouth, dry throat IBS, loose watery stools aggravated by stress - sometimes foul, usually just watery tired after eating, bloating, gas, acid reflux not particulary strong thirst sleep is good some minor low back discomfort - recent tongue - red, dry cracked body slightly thick yellow coat in back pulse - left slippery and weak in cun position, right slippery weak in guan position, liitle bit fast - at 6 beats per breath (please keep in mind I am only 1 year post grad, my pulse skills need much attention!) However, I am sure this is not a purely wiry or thin pulse as may be expected lifestyle/work: family man - married with 2 children family seems happy, I treat his wife for painful periods - life long issue for her, she is better now unsure of his work - does marketing, business stuff - self employed - I don't ask the specifics about his work goes to church on Sundays and stays involved with the community - David and Teah Akrish Friday, November 21, 2003 4:56 PM Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong Hi Michael, Of course I'm going ask the obvious, [or not so obvious!} what else can you tell me of his pattern, your dx., past hx. of WM dx.(s). It could be more then just 'plain' liver wind/spleen issues with a problem in anchoring the Yang...yin/blood def.? 30 years is a long time for something [anything] to be happening. Does he have ringing in the ears for example or a heat excess or def. condition? What else is going on? How old is he/ lifestyle/work??? With two weeks in mind, it sounds like your asking the right question on why or what. David - " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien Thursday, November 20, 2003 1:53 PM Quan Xie, Wu Gong > Hi All, > > I am using these 2 medicinals for the first time and would like some input from some experienced herbalist's. I have a patient on these herbs as part of a formula for a patient with liver wind - hand, arm, head tremors for the past 30 years. He has been on them for 2 weeks now (.9g each 5:1 powder extract) and his tremors are almost gone, however, If he misses a dose they come right back, how long can I keep him on these herbs safely?? > > He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi in place of wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, but not complete. > > Complete formula: > Bai Zhu > Fu Ling > Dang Gui > Chi Shao > Gou Teng > Tian Ma > Quan Xie > Wu Gong > Huang Qin > Huang Bai > Sheng Di > Mai Men Dong > Ban Xia > > Looking forward to your feedback. > > Cheers, > Mike > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Dear Michael, You might want to consider using modified wu mei wan. Beside its original indication, parasites, it is also used to treat chronic diarrhea or dysentery, chohn's and ulcerative colitis, due to both cold and heat with righteous qi deficiency. Yehuda On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:39:45 -0500 " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien writes: > Hi David, > > Yes, my dx for main complaint is liver wind from xu liver yin and > blood. Here are the highlights: > > 44 year old male > Hand tremors which when stressed are worse and includes head tremors > - past 34 years > eyes - floaters, spots > dizzy spells 1-2 x per week, afternoon > no nausea > occasional tinnitus, 1-2x per month in the morning > very dry, cracked finger nails > body temp - runs warm > dry mouth, dry throat > IBS, loose watery stools aggravated by stress - sometimes foul, > usually just watery > tired after eating, bloating, gas, acid reflux > not particulary strong thirst > sleep is good > some minor low back discomfort - recent > tongue - red, dry cracked body slightly thick yellow coat in back > pulse - left slippery and weak in cun position, right slippery weak > in guan position, liitle bit fast - at 6 beats per breath (please > keep in mind I am only 1 year post grad, my pulse skills need much > attention!) However, I am sure this is not a purely wiry or thin > pulse as may be expected > > lifestyle/work: > family man - married with 2 children family seems happy, I treat his > wife for painful periods - life long issue for her, she is better > now > unsure of his work - does marketing, business stuff - self employed > - I don't ask the specifics about his work > goes to church on Sundays and stays involved with the community > > - > David and Teah Akrish > > Friday, November 21, 2003 4:56 PM > Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong > > > Hi Michael, > > Of course I'm going ask the obvious, [or not so obvious!} what > else can you > tell me of his pattern, your dx., past hx. of WM dx.(s). It > could be more > then just 'plain' liver wind/spleen issues with a problem in > anchoring the > Yang...yin/blood def.? 30 years is a long time for something > [anything] to > be happening. Does he have ringing in the ears for example or a > heat excess > or def. condition? What else is going on? How old is he/ > lifestyle/work??? With two weeks in mind, it sounds like your > asking the > right question on why or what. > > > David > - > " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien > > Thursday, November 20, 2003 1:53 PM > Quan Xie, Wu Gong > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am using these 2 medicinals for the first time and would like > some input > from some experienced herbalist's. I have a patient on these herbs > as part > of a formula for a patient with liver wind - hand, arm, head > tremors for the > past 30 years. He has been on them for 2 weeks now (.9g each 5:1 > powder > extract) and his tremors are almost gone, however, If he misses a > dose they > come right back, how long can I keep him on these herbs safely?? > > > > He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi > in place of > wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, > but not > complete. > > > > Complete formula: > > Bai Zhu > > Fu Ling > > Dang Gui > > Chi Shao > > Gou Teng > > Tian Ma > > Quan Xie > > Wu Gong > > Huang Qin > > Huang Bai > > Sheng Di > > Mai Men Dong > > Ban Xia > > > > Looking forward to your feedback. > > > > Cheers, > > Mike > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hi Michael< Thank you for the in-depth breakdown. I will give you my humble thoughts. One more question...did something happen when he was ten??? See remarks below I like your dx., but maybe I can add something. How is he now and are you considering changing the rx.?? David - " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien Monday, November 24, 2003 6:39 AM Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong > Hi David, > > Yes, my dx for main complaint is liver wind from xu liver yin and blood. Here are the highlights: > > 44 year old male > Hand tremors which when stressed are worse and includes head tremors - past 34 years Liver yang not anchored by the yin/wind > eyes - floaters, spots blood xu > dizzy spells 1-2 x per week, afternoon Liver yang not anchored by the yin/wind > no nausea > occasional tinnitus, 1-2x per month in the morning Liver yang not anchored by the yin/wind > very dry, cracked finger nails blood xu > body temp - runs warm Yin xu > dry mouth, dry throat Yin xu > IBS, loose watery stools aggravated by stress - sometimes foul, usually just watery Liver invade spleen > tired after eating, bloating, gas, acid reflux Spleen qi xu > not particulary strong thirst Because of Spleen qi xu > sleep is good hard to believe! > some minor low back discomfort - recent K. Yin xu {good clue on Yin xu) > tongue - red, dry cracked body slightly thick yellow coat in back Sounds like maybe more of a Yin xu not anchoring the yang pattern leading to K.Yin xu due to the time/hx. involved. Kidney Yin/ St./blood formula with qi herbs?? This is where I would go. Your initial formula worked on the clearing [heat & wind] and strenghening [spleen & some yin], maybe now needs replenishing My wife thinks yin xu causing liver stag./wind/heat.... Agrees with the trial of more Yin tonics. > pulse - left slippery and weak in cun position, right slippery weak in guan position, liitle bit fast - at 6 beats per breath (please keep in mind I am only 1 year post grad, my pulse skills need much attention!) However, I am sure this is not a purely wiry or thin pulse as may be expected The slipperiness could be directly from the weakened spleen from the liver disharmonie. Is the pulse deep/faint? Actually I would not expect a big wiry/tight pulse, excess, due to the years of disharmonie (tongue picture), more of a weakened and watery one as you describe. Heat and water seem to go there seperate ways with time! Bad for the constitution and hard to redirect, but it can be done. Write me back with your thoughts, please. David > > lifestyle/work: > family man - married with 2 children family seems happy, I treat his wife for painful periods - life long issue for her, she is better now > unsure of his work - does marketing, business stuff - self employed - I don't ask the specifics about his work > goes to church on Sundays and stays involved with the community > > - > David and Teah Akrish > > Friday, November 21, 2003 4:56 PM > Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong > > > Hi Michael, > > Of course I'm going ask the obvious, [or not so obvious!} what else can you > tell me of his pattern, your dx., past hx. of WM dx.(s). It could be more > then just 'plain' liver wind/spleen issues with a problem in anchoring the > Yang...yin/blood def.? 30 years is a long time for something [anything] to > be happening. Does he have ringing in the ears for example or a heat excess > or def. condition? What else is going on? How old is he/ > lifestyle/work??? With two weeks in mind, it sounds like your asking the > right question on why or what. > > > David > - > " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien > > Thursday, November 20, 2003 1:53 PM > Quan Xie, Wu Gong > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am using these 2 medicinals for the first time and would like some input > from some experienced herbalist's. I have a patient on these herbs as part > of a formula for a patient with liver wind - hand, arm, head tremors for the > past 30 years. He has been on them for 2 weeks now (.9g each 5:1 powder > extract) and his tremors are almost gone, however, If he misses a dose they > come right back, how long can I keep him on these herbs safely?? > > > > He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi in place of > wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, but not > complete. > > > > Complete formula: > > Bai Zhu > > Fu Ling > > Dang Gui > > Chi Shao > > Gou Teng > > Tian Ma > > Quan Xie > > Wu Gong > > Huang Qin > > Huang Bai > > Sheng Di > > Mai Men Dong > > Ban Xia > > > > Looking forward to your feedback. > > > > Cheers, > > Mike > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Hello Michael, What is his diet like? Recent use of antibiotics? Lactose intolerance? Excessive intake of alcohol, coffee, fried foods, or anything else? (-> Nails, IBS, watery stool, acid reflux, etc.) Just as a reminder, most digestive disorders are directly related to the food we consume, and no matter how refined your Dx skills are, and how accurate and sophisticated your herbal formula may be, your attempt at restoring homeostasis will be repressed. Just some thoughts. Daniel C. Luthi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Can Yehuda ask Dr. Zhang about the original question, " How long can you use Quan Xie and Wu Gong safely? " thanks, doug , " Daniel " <solothurner> wrote: > Hello Michael, > > What is his diet like? Recent use of antibiotics? Lactose intolerance? > Excessive intake of alcohol, coffee, fried foods, or anything else? > (-> Nails, IBS, watery stool, acid reflux, etc.) > > Just as a reminder, most digestive disorders are directly related to > the food we consume, and no matter how refined your Dx skills are, and > how accurate and sophisticated your herbal formula may be, your > attempt at restoring homeostasis will be repressed. Just some thoughts. > > Daniel C. Luthi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 I will be seeing Dr Zhang on Thursday, and I will try to remember to ask him. Yehuda , " " wrote: > Can Yehuda ask Dr. Zhang about the original question, " How long can you use Quan > Xie and Wu Gong safely? " thanks, > doug > > , " Daniel " <solothurner> wrote: > > Hello Michael, > > > > What is his diet like? Recent use of antibiotics? Lactose intolerance? > > Excessive intake of alcohol, coffee, fried foods, or anything else? > > (-> Nails, IBS, watery stool, acid reflux, etc.) > > > > Just as a reminder, most digestive disorders are directly related to > > the food we consume, and no matter how refined your Dx skills are, and > > how accurate and sophisticated your herbal formula may be, your > > attempt at restoring homeostasis will be repressed. Just some thoughts. > > > > Daniel C. Luthi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2003 Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Michael, Some thoughts below. , " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien@g...> wrote: > eyes - floaters, spots questions for the group: what other causes are there of floaters or spots besides blood vacuity? liver yin vacuity? > very dry, cracked finger nails - could this be yin xu? anything else? > body temp - runs warm all the time or in evening or late afternoon? what is the nature of yin xu fever? Is there a " standard " ? what other causes could there be of this warmth? > dry mouth, dry throat could be yin xu. what about fluids not circulating due to damp stagnation? > IBS, loose watery stools aggravated by stress - sometimes foul, usually just watery > tired after eating, bloating, gas, acid reflux these symptoms all suggest spleen xu with damp and heat brewing to me > tongue - red, dry cracked body slightly thick yellow coat in back the tongue body and coat sounds like the type one sees when the patient has long term dampheat leading to early stages of yin xu. > pulse - left slippery and weak in cun position, right slippery weak in guan position, little bit fast > further confirmation that dampheat is still present. I believe this patient has dampheat, yin xu and wind. But I think the dampheat is a major factor that needs addressing. the yin xu is not that prominent yet, as there are no nightsweats. the spleen is no doubt compromised by the dampheat and the obstruction would result in blood vacuity. thoughts on your formula follow below. If he misses a dose [of quan xie] they > come right back, how long can I keep him on these herbs safely?? > > these herbs have no effect on the root of the disease. they are toxic. they work by paralysis due to poisoning. I try not to use them much at all and then not for more than 2 weeks. If milder herbs do not work, I believe the patient would be better off addressing the branch of his condition with western drugs that are effective for this symptom. He would probably need only very low doses to control his sx if he is on herbs. I would also put more emphasis on the wind calming nontoxics in the next formula to soften the transition from the paralytics. You may also want to consider a powder dosage of 5 g TID to achieve your therapeutic goal with non toxics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Hi David and all, Nothing happened when he was ten. What he had was a gradual onset of symptoms, for this patient, tremors run in the family, father, grandfather and uncle all have this. His father is not too bad, but he said his grandfather had them at the same severity that he does. Due to the family history I have concern that, although in theory we can treat the root, I am not convinced that this is a case that can be 'cured' in that manner. Now, that does not mean I have any intention of abandoning treating his root pattern, but I do believe there is a definite need to stay focused on his main complaint and try to provide ongoing relief from the tremors, while hopefully addressing the underlying pattern along the way. believes that damp heat is a major factor that needs addressing and I tend to agree with that. I have in the formula huang qin, huang bai and gave him huang lian su tablets separately. do you have other suggestions, the formula is below. David, my concern with yin tonics is their cloying nature. Again, remember his spleen is compromised. It took a few different formulas over a few week trial period to find one that he could digest well and actually address the spleen issues as well as the liver issues harmoniously. Currently on this formula he has more energy, bowel movements are pretty much normal, no acid reflux, and the main complaint of tremors is almost indistinct. I have made the mistake of trying to tonify without clearing out the excess in the past and learned from that. Maybe I hold on to that lesson to closely? David, he was in on Tuesday, pulse quality is changing. It now is of moderate strength, not as xu as previous and has changed from a slippery quality to being tight. Tongue is still the same. Also, he said he missed a day of the herbs while on a business trip and did not have tremors that day, previous week he missed one dose and they started up. He now has a new complaint of allergies, sinus drip and irritated eyes. He told me he gets this every year around this time. I am concerned with modifying the formula due his response with his main complaints. He is taking western rx meds now for the allergies, but would prefer not to. Looking forward to continued feedback, thoughts on this. Thanks for your interest David, Yehuda, Doug, Sean, Simcha. For now I will probably keep a low dose of Quan Xie and Wu Gong in the formula, with the goal of eliminating them from it. Cheers, Mike - David and Teah Akrish Tuesday, November 25, 2003 6:07 PM Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong Hi Michael< Thank you for the in-depth breakdown. I will give you my humble thoughts. One more question...did something happen when he was ten??? See remarks below I like your dx., but maybe I can add something. How is he now and are you considering changing the rx.?? David - " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien Monday, November 24, 2003 6:39 AM Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong > Hi David, > > Yes, my dx for main complaint is liver wind from xu liver yin and blood. Here are the highlights: > > 44 year old male > Hand tremors which when stressed are worse and includes head tremors - past 34 years Liver yang not anchored by the yin/wind > eyes - floaters, spots blood xu > dizzy spells 1-2 x per week, afternoon Liver yang not anchored by the yin/wind > no nausea > occasional tinnitus, 1-2x per month in the morning Liver yang not anchored by the yin/wind > very dry, cracked finger nails blood xu > body temp - runs warm Yin xu > dry mouth, dry throat Yin xu > IBS, loose watery stools aggravated by stress - sometimes foul, usually just watery Liver invade spleen > tired after eating, bloating, gas, acid reflux Spleen qi xu > not particulary strong thirst Because of Spleen qi xu > sleep is good hard to believe! > some minor low back discomfort - recent K. Yin xu {good clue on Yin xu) > tongue - red, dry cracked body slightly thick yellow coat in back Sounds like maybe more of a Yin xu not anchoring the yang pattern leading to K.Yin xu due to the time/hx. involved. Kidney Yin/ St./blood formula with qi herbs?? This is where I would go. Your initial formula worked on the clearing [heat & wind] and strenghening [spleen & some yin], maybe now needs replenishing My wife thinks yin xu causing liver stag./wind/heat.... Agrees with the trial of more Yin tonics. > pulse - left slippery and weak in cun position, right slippery weak in guan position, liitle bit fast - at 6 beats per breath (please keep in mind I am only 1 year post grad, my pulse skills need much attention!) However, I am sure this is not a purely wiry or thin pulse as may be expected The slipperiness could be directly from the weakened spleen from the liver disharmonie. Is the pulse deep/faint? Actually I would not expect a big wiry/tight pulse, excess, due to the years of disharmonie (tongue picture), more of a weakened and watery one as you describe. Heat and water seem to go there seperate ways with time! Bad for the constitution and hard to redirect, but it can be done. Write me back with your thoughts, please. David > > lifestyle/work: > family man - married with 2 children family seems happy, I treat his wife for painful periods - life long issue for her, she is better now > unsure of his work - does marketing, business stuff - self employed - I don't ask the specifics about his work > goes to church on Sundays and stays involved with the community > > - > David and Teah Akrish > > Friday, November 21, 2003 4:56 PM > Re: Quan Xie, Wu Gong > > > Hi Michael, > > Of course I'm going ask the obvious, [or not so obvious!} what else can you > tell me of his pattern, your dx., past hx. of WM dx.(s). It could be more > then just 'plain' liver wind/spleen issues with a problem in anchoring the > Yang...yin/blood def.? 30 years is a long time for something [anything] to > be happening. Does he have ringing in the ears for example or a heat excess > or def. condition? What else is going on? How old is he/ > lifestyle/work??? With two weeks in mind, it sounds like your asking the > right question on why or what. > > > David > - > " Michael O'Brien " <mobrien > > Thursday, November 20, 2003 1:53 PM > Quan Xie, Wu Gong > > > > Hi All, > > > > I am using these 2 medicinals for the first time and would like some input > from some experienced herbalist's. I have a patient on these herbs as part > of a formula for a patient with liver wind - hand, arm, head tremors for the > past 30 years. He has been on them for 2 weeks now (.9g each 5:1 powder > extract) and his tremors are almost gone, however, If he misses a dose they > come right back, how long can I keep him on these herbs safely?? > > > > He was on the formula below with shi jue ming and chuan niu xi in place of > wu gong and quan xie for close to one month and got some relief, but not > complete. > > > > Complete formula: > > Bai Zhu > > Fu Ling > > Dang Gui > > Chi Shao > > Gou Teng > > Tian Ma > > Quan Xie > > Wu Gong > > Huang Qin > > Huang Bai > > Sheng Di > > Mai Men Dong > > Ban Xia > > > > Looking forward to your feedback. > > > > Cheers, > > Mike > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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