Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 , yehuda l frischman < @j...> wrote: > Dear Doug, > > I spoke to Dr. Zhang tonight and he said that a small dose, maximum 3g > per day of each could be taken indefinitely for chronic neurological > conditions. > > Yehuda while this may be traditional, I am reminded of flaws post about the medical anthropologist who made it clear that traditional ideas about poisonous herbs may be erroneous. they would have never known that the herb did the insidious damage. while people can take whatever position they want, I feel strongly that poisons are inferior herbs and have no place in long term tx. I believe this is one traditional position. However I have noted a strong affinity for the use of poisonous animal parts by many modern chinese docs. I can only think that the same motivation exists for them as exists for western docs to precribe toxics. Immediate and dramatic symptom relief. My experience suggests milder herbs in higher dosages work quit well for most cases after the initial edge is taken off. I am reminded about the debates between 19th century americanherbalists on this issue. the eclectics freely used toxics and the physiomedicalists eschewed them altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 Dear Your point is well taken. I am reminded of the research studies on the parkinson's drug SINEMET. It turns out that it is a classic case of a devil's bargain: Patient's get dramatic symptomatic relief of symptoms, but insidiously, it causes the disease process to accelerate. The excuse they give is that they are improving albeit temporarily the quality of life. I'm not so sure that the same would be true of quan xie and wu gong. Have any studies immerged showing toxicity with very small doses long term? Perhaps also the pharmaceutical principle of u-curve might apply here as well, in that a certain dose could be ineffective, a larger does effective and yet a larger dose toxic. Perhaps the body has the ability to derive benefit and detox the small dose, but not the larger dose. Again, if patients, from his 25 years of experience are able to take 3g doses without reprecussions, that certainly is compelling, though admittedly anecdotal. Sincerely, Yehuda ______________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2003 Report Share Posted November 27, 2003 My experience suggests milder herbs in higher dosages work quit well for most cases after the initial edge is taken off. I am reminded about the debates between 19th century americanherbalists on this issue. the eclectics freely used toxics and the physiomedicalists eschewed them altogether. >>>>Todd the question is do they have real downsides beyond thinking they are toxic. Quan xie taken orally is there toxicity. You know i never research it do we have animal or human information? The bite of a live scorpion is toxic but oral i am not sure. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Hi Alon, I believe that they are toxic even taken orally. One of my previous instructors warned us that they are working directly with the nervous system and you will see neurological side effects, such as headache. Actually, my patient asked if we could up the dose to completely eliminate the tremors, so I did up the dose to .9 grams each Quan Xie and Wu Gong (5:1 powder extract) and he did start to get headaches (jueyin). He is now at a dose of .3 grams and his tremors are virtually unnoticed, i.e.very slight when stressed, and no headache. Cheers, Mike - Alon Marcus Thursday, November 27, 2003 3:03 PM Re: toxics My experience suggests milder herbs in higher dosages work quit well for most cases after the initial edge is taken off. I am reminded about the debates between 19th century americanherbalists on this issue. the eclectics freely used toxics and the physiomedicalists eschewed them altogether. >>>>Todd the question is do they have real downsides beyond thinking they are toxic. Quan xie taken orally is there toxicity. You know i never research it do we have animal or human information? The bite of a live scorpion is toxic but oral i am not sure. alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 I believe that they are toxic even taken orally. One of my previous instructors warned us that they are working directly with the nervous system and you will see neurological side effects, such as headache. Actually, my patient asked if we could up the dose to completely eliminate the tremors, so I did up the dose to .9 grams each Quan Xie and Wu Gong (5:1 powder extract) and he did start to get headaches (jueyin). He is now at a dose of .3 grams and his tremors are virtually unnoticed, i.e.very slight when stressed, and no headache. >>>>I have used both at a higher dosage also extracts many times and no one complained of any sideeffects. Now that does not mean its not toxic alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 As far as the concentration of Quan Xie is concnerned, I would check with your supplier about the actual concetration. I know that in somecompanies the scorpions are prepared (pao zhi) and then ground. Cooking destroys their effectiveness. This is also why they are usually taken as powders along with the prescription (i.e., not decocted). As I believe that most every Taiwanese company has about the same products, I assume that other companies (such as KP) also prepare it this way. So 0.9g per day would not be so high. If this were a 5:1, then the corresponding 4.5g would be quite high. Simon Becker ALON MARCUS [alonmarcus] Freitag, 28. November 2003 21:57 Re: toxics I believe that they are toxic even taken orally. One of my previous instructors warned us that they are working directly with the nervous system and you will see neurological side effects, such as headache. Actually, my patient asked if we could up the dose to completely eliminate the tremors, so I did up the dose to .9 grams each Quan Xie and Wu Gong (5:1 powder extract) and he did start to get headaches (jueyin). He is now at a dose of .3 grams and his tremors are virtually unnoticed, i.e.very slight when stressed, and no headache. >>>>I have used both at a higher dosage also extracts many times and no one complained of any sideeffects. Now that does not mean its not toxic alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 As far as the concentration of Quan Xie is concnerned, I would check with your supplier about the actual concetration. I know that in somecompanies the scorpions are prepared (pao zhi) and then ground. Cooking destroys their effectiveness. This is also why they are usually taken as powders along with the prescription (i.e., not decocted). As I believe that most every Taiwanese company has about the same products, I assume that other companies (such as KP) also prepare it this way. So 0.9g per day would not be so high. If this were a 5:1, then the corresponding 4.5g would be quite high. Simon Becker >>>>Simon i do not believe it is possible to " concentrate " animal products but i may be wrong alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 what about boveril, it claims to be essence of meat... - " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:50 PM Re: toxics > As far as the concentration of Quan Xie is concnerned, I would check > with your supplier about the actual concetration. I know that in > somecompanies the scorpions are prepared (pao zhi) and then ground. > Cooking destroys their effectiveness. This is also why they are usually > taken as powders along with the prescription (i.e., not decocted). As I > believe that most every Taiwanese company has about the same products, I > assume that other companies (such as KP) also prepare it this way. > > So 0.9g per day would not be so high. If this were a 5:1, then the > corresponding 4.5g would be quite high. > > Simon Becker > >>>>Simon i do not believe it is possible to " concentrate " animal products but i may be wrong > alon > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 One example is Bee Venom which is quickly broken down by digestive enzymes in the stomach. Barry Thorne >> >>>>Todd the question is do they have real downsides beyond thinking they >>are toxic. Quan xie taken orally is there toxicity. You know i never >>research it do we have animal or human information? The bite of a live >>scorpion is toxic but oral i am not sure. >alon > _______________ Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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