Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 , Jason Robertson <kentuckyginseng@ y...> wrote: > it seems more fruitful to pursue discussions as to what is this thing that the ancient Chinese called Kidney and what is yang with respect to the kidney. Jason, I believe that in order to reach my goal of useful TCM standards, it will be necessary to explore the core classical issues you suggest to be of more importance than any list of dx criteria. In addition, any list should be taught with reference back to the basic concepts so students understand why the list is as it is. I always do this in herbology and nei ke classes anyway. The whole thrust of PCOM's program is the comprehension and application of CM, not mainly the memorization of lists at all. However, I follow Ken Wilber in the matter of knowledge and validity. According to Wilber, knowledge in a subjective field such as CM is only valid to the extent there is consensus in the field. For old-timers on the list, I have made this position clear numerous times and even given links to Wilber's work. See validity claims at http://www.imprint.co.uk/Wilber.htm I can even say I founded CHA largely to explore this idea and see if it applied to CM. If you are suggesting that each person's individual understanding of the kidney should substitute for some community consensus on this and similar matters, this evinces a fundamental difference between you and I about how valid knowledge is acquired. However I will not assume I am correct here about your meaning. What appeals to me about CM is the widespread consensus on many core issues - statements of fact as Flaws calls them. What I see is the difference between the two schools of thought you describe is one approaches knowledge as consensus of a group and another appears to be advocating personal knowledge to be superior to group consensus. The former group uses classical knowledge to form such a consensus. Perhaps this is not the chinese way, but perhaps the development of TCM has been stymied in the past because this was not done. I think it is pretty clear that CM would not have survived into the 20th century as a major force w/o such standardization. It is no surprise that as the Taiwanese and Japanese and Koreans and Vietnamese begin to revise their traditional medical educational systems, they are looking to the chinese for standards. I believe this is the rule, not the exception for the expansion of CM worldwide. Just as we must have standards in translation of source material for this transmission, we must also develop our own educational, research and examination standards for the medicine to really advance forward. The first CHA conference was themed " firm foundations for a flexible future " , thus stating my position that looking backwards is necessary to move forward. So perhaps you are not referring to me when you make statements delineating a false dichotomy between the schools of thought on these matters. However I do not believe your statement even characterizes the position of most people on this list, though it is true for some. I would also suggest that if you are really concerned about a rejection of classical ideas for some imposed modern standards, your real target should be the new national org and accreditation agencies that are organizing around the banners of Deke Kendall and Felix Mann. These folks have actually been arguing for a complete westernization of CM with no need for classical study or chinese language, positions I have never once advocated seriously. I am sorry if some of my recent rhetoric has suggested otherwise, but I was merely being hyperbolic to make a point. I believe the mission of the CHA is the moderate, integrative, realistic one. And as old timers to the list also know, I am motivated by my views on what changes paradigms and is pragmatic, nothing more nefarious than that. I believe without challenging the paradigm of normal science from within, it will never change. Motivation the same, strong disagreement on correct methods to achieve the goal. Finally, I am personally confused by one crowd supporting TCM standards, but not translation standards and the other, vice-versa. Very few people seem to see the need for standards across the board as I do (also herb purity, etc.). It makes me wonder what motivates people to have apparently contradictory points of view. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 At 9:01 AM -0800 11/30/03, wrote: >I believe without challenging the paradigm of normal science from within, it >will never change. -- Listening to a couple of Unschuld tapes from the PCOM conference, I take it that he would disagree with your statement and say that historically in Chinese medicine, innovation occurs mainly as a result of professional response to outside political pressure rather than professional initiative. I'm not sure that I have heard all he has to say on the subject, but it is an interesting observation. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 , Rory Kerr <rory.kerr@w...> wrote: > At 9:01 AM -0800 11/30/03, wrote: > >I believe without challenging the paradigm of normal science from within, it > >will never change. > -- > > > > Listening to a couple of Unschuld tapes from the PCOM conference, I > take it that he would disagree with your statement and say that > historically in Chinese medicine, innovation occurs mainly as a > result of professional response to outside political pressure rather > than professional initiative. Perhaps the Structure of Scientific revolutions does not apply to chinese culture. I would accept this. That kuhn did not define a universal paradigm shift scheme, but one that was only applicable to the data he had, all of which was eurocentric. Chinese cultural evolution did not follow the same trajectory as in the west , so this would not really be that surprising. The question is whether the paradigm that will shift is is one that conforms to western or eastern norms of culture and psyche. I thinking I am talking about the shifting of our western paradigm by challenge from within normal science, not changing what goes on in china. so then the next question is whether unschuld or common scholarly thought on the subject is that western science is similar in that way. And where does political pressure come from in a democracy. the people and the " experts " who are on their side. I think politics can be shifted with science, unfortunately not as often as I would like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 Do people think there is a symptom or sign that must be present for a pattern to exist. For example, if one has K-Yang def does one have to have some urinary symptoms? alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 Alon, I've been thinking about this lately, and I think the answer is no. For example, a woman can have kidney yang def and just have edema, clamminess and cold limbs. No urinary symptoms. You might say, then why not diagnose spleen yang def just as easily? I might also add, she has dry hair, slightly hypothyroid, constipation, etc. No digestive symptoms either. Julie - " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus Sunday, November 30, 2003 1:40 PM Re: CHA and standards > Do people think there is a symptom or sign that must be present for a pattern to exist. For example, if one has K-Yang def does one have to have some urinary symptoms? > alon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 innovation occurs mainly as a result of professional response to outside political pressure rather than professional initiative. >>>He has stated this on various occasions alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 , Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote: > > I've been thinking about this lately, and I think the answer is no. For > example, a woman can have kidney yang def and just have edema, clamminess > and cold limbs. No urinary symptoms. according to flaws, three sx must be present from the following four and one must be decreased libido: 1. nocturia 2. low back and or kneed pain 3. cold feet 4. decreased libido so there does not need to be nocturia according to this list, but what about the libido issue. Before we discussed what was libido, not whether we thought it to be essential or not. Why or why not would it be essential to this dx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 , " " wrote: > according to flaws, three sx must be present from the following four and one must be decreased libido: > > 1. nocturia > 2. low back and or kneed pain > 3. cold feet > 4. decreased libido > > so there does not need to be nocturia according to this list, but what about the libido issue. Before we discussed what was libido, not whether we thought it to be essential or not. Why or why not would it be essential to this dx? : While this may be generally true, this is not necessarily true in all cases. I had a patient with decreased libido without any other symptoms. He had all the WM tests and didn't exhibit any of the pulses for the other symptoms. It turned out to be a problem of the communication of the hypothalamus; showing up as a blockage in the kidney yang pulse (right proximal). At first I suspected that it may be blockages in the blood vessels networking with it; but it quickly resolved. The only thing we could figure was that he spent long hours as an engineer working with electrical equipment. The electrical and magnetic fields may have did something to his brain. The situation was resolved with herbs and 3 acupuncture treatments. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 I wouldn't want to oppose Mr. Flaws, who has more experience than I...but what would the diagnosis be then, for a patient with the signs and symptoms I mentioned: cold limbs, clamminess, edema, dry hair, constipation, hypothyroid? What if she doesn't have decreased libido, either because it was already low, or it's now higher because she has a fantastic new boyfriend, etc. I just can't see how anyone can say " three sx MUST be present, and one MUST be decreased libido. " Julie - " " < Sunday, November 30, 2003 2:06 PM Re: CHA and standards > according to flaws, three sx must be present from the following four and one > must be decreased libido: > > 1. nocturia > 2. low back and or kneed pain > 3. cold feet > 4. decreased libido > > so there does not need to be nocturia according to this list, but what about the > libido issue. Before we discussed what was libido, not whether we thought it to > be essential or not. Why or why not would it be essential to this dx? > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 I've been thinking about this lately, and I think the answer is no. For example, a woman can have kidney yang def and just have edema, clamminess and cold limbs. No urinary symptoms. You might say, then why not diagnose spleen yang def just as easily? I might also add, she has dry hair, slightly hypothyroid, constipation, etc. No digestive symptoms either. >>>>I think i agree. Does anyone know what the official version is Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 so there does not need to be nocturia according to this list, but what about the libido issue. Before we discussed what was libido, not whether we thought it to be essential or not. Why or why not would it be essential to this dx? >>>>Again i wander if there some official idea on this. Is there a key symptom or sign of each pattern Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 , Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote: > I wouldn't want to oppose Mr. Flaws, who has more experience than I...but > what would the diagnosis be then, for a patient with the signs and symptoms > I mentioned: cold limbs, clamminess, edema, dry hair, constipation, > hypothyroid? What if she doesn't have decreased libido, either because it > was already low, or it's now higher because she has a fantastic new > boyfriend, etc. I just can't see how anyone can say " three sx MUST be > present, and one MUST be decreased libido. " first, lets all get clear here in that there really is no right or wrong answer in these matters. Just whether there is consensus and that consensus is built upon experience and/or literary citations. so Mr. flaws is interepreting the modern chinese standards in light of his expereince. I believe the chinese standards also include tongue and pulse signs, which Mr. flaw finds unreliable in these cases. I am not sure whether the requirement of decreased libido comes from texts or experiences. Bob? According to Wiseman, the pattern does not require this sx as the passage states, " where the reproductive function is affected " . the use of the word " where " suggests reproductive disorder is not required. Your case seems to be one of generalized qi and blood xu going towards yang xu. But I do not see kidney involvement per se. I still might use shi quan da bu wan with rou cong rong and ze xie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 At 2:55 PM -0600 11/30/03, Alon Marcus wrote: >innovation occurs mainly as a >result of professional response to outside political pressure rather >than professional initiative. > >>>He has stated this on various occasions -- who is " He " ? So? Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 Dear Because she had cold symptoms, along with hypofunction, I had to diagnose yang deficiency, and what organ would it be if not kidney? As I said in my previous post, would you think spleen? No digestive symptoms. Heart? why? Since kidney yang is the source of all yang, it made sense to me to tonify and warm kidney yang. Remember, this discussion started with the idea: does low libido have to play a part? and I still think No. Julie - " " < Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:25 PM Re: CHA and standards Your case seems to be one of generalized qi and > blood xu going towards yang xu. But I do not see kidney involvement per se. > I still might use shi quan da bu wan with rou cong rong and ze xie. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 who is " He " ? So? >>>>>PU Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 Jim, I had a patient with decreased libido without any other symptoms. He had all the WM tests and didn't exhibit any of the pulses for the > other symptoms. My diagnostic algorithm is only for women aged 40-60 and is primarily meant for identifying kidney yang vacuity in the presence of simulatneous heat. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 > > what would the diagnosis be then, for a patient with the signs and symptoms > > I mentioned: cold limbs, clamminess, edema, dry hair, constipation, > > hypothyroid? What if she doesn't have decreased libido, either because it > > was already low, or it's now higher because she has a fantastic new > > boyfriend, etc. Julie, Just given the signs and symptoms you have stated above, the pattern discrimination would most likely be spleen yang vacuity with spleen vacuity failing to engender the blood and, therefore, resulting in constipation. I would be very careful making any CM assumptions based on the fact that her thyroid is low. That is a disease diagnosis, and we are talking patterns here. While many women with hypothyroidism present a pattern of spleen-kidney dual vacuity, we must identify patient's presenting patterns based on their presenting signs and symptoms. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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