Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 One of my chinese colleagues is adamant that xiao yao san has no blood or qi supplementing action. Our basic texts in english describe this rx as being for liver depression with qi and blood vacuity. However my colleague says this formula was designed to prevent transmission of the disease from the liver to the spleen, such as zhang zhong jing mentions in the foreword to the SHL or the admonition in the nei jing to build a well before you are thirsty. So the questions are: what was the original intent? how is it commonly understood today? if it is used differently today, does that matter (we also xiao chai hu tang differently today) is it unreasonable to consider this rx as it is described in bensky? I do note that in several books, I did see a modification described as such: IF there is concomitant qi vacuity, then add ren shen and huang qi why if the word IF used when qi vacuity is already present. It does not say, if qi vacuity is extreme or severe, just IF it is present at all. on the other hand, the formula includes 3 of the 4 ingredients of si jun zi tang; isn't that supplementing enough for mild qi vacuity. Chinese Herbs " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 on the other hand, the formula includes 3 of the 4 ingredients of si jun zi tang; isn't that supplementing enough for mild qi vacuity >>>>Todd this goes to the question of is a formula its own entity or the some of its ingredients. Now after my trip to Taiwan i think about this a lot. No opinion however alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 At 9:22 AM -0800 12/4/03, wrote: >One of my chinese colleagues is adamant that xiao yao san has no blood or >qi supplementing action. Our basic texts in english describe this rx as >being for liver depression with qi and blood vacuity. However my colleague >says this formula was designed to prevent transmission of the disease from >the liver to the spleen, such as zhang zhong jing mentions in the foreword >to the SHL or the admonition in the nei jing to build a well before you are >thirsty. So the questions are: > >what was the original intent? -- According to Bensky the original text specifically mentions qi and blood vacuity. If the patient had only qi stagnation, si ni san would be a more appropriate choice. But perhaps he meant that this formula is not supplementing, as opposed to having no components that are supplementing, in which case I'd agree with him -- ie it is harmonizing, not supplementing. In other words, you could not use it for qi and blood vacuity in the absence of liver-spleen disharmony. Ask him/her how xiao yao san harmonizes. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 From the Qin Bowei (page 51) This prescription (XYS) primarily treats liver depression and blood vacuity with intermittent fever and chills, headache, costal pain, anorexia, irregular menstruatin and a wiry vacuity pulse. Nonetheless, it does not purely sooteh the liver but is also used t strenthen the spleen...... A little of both bo he and pao jiang are used in the decoction becuase they also assist the capacity of the presctinon to soothe depression and harmonize the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 , " " wrote: > From the Qin Bowei (page 51) > This prescription (XYS) primarily treats liver depression and blood vacuity with > intermittent fever and chills, headache, costal pain, anorexia, irregular menstruatin > and a wiry vacuity pulse. Nonetheless, it does not purely sooteh the liver but is also > used t strenthen the spleen...... A little of both bo he and pao jiang are used in the > decoction becuase they also assist the capacity of the presctinon to soothe > depression and harmonize the middle. BTW, thanks for reminding me of the liver discussion in qin bo wei. It does lay out the issues of liver heat, fire and depression nicely. However it has also raised some new questions which will come later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 " what was the original intent? " Personally, I'd say, who cares? " how is it commonly understood today? " Because it contains Dang Gui & Bai Shao, it definitely does nouruish liver blood, and nourishment is a type of supplementation. Besides, because it contains Gan Cao (esp. if using Zhi Gan Cao), Fu Ling, and Bai Zhu, it does supplement the qi. To argue against these facts, suggests a not very perceptive opinion. My guess is that this is an example of Chinese tendecies to be doctrinaire. Who knows? All we have is a secondhand report. Perhaps the Chinese source would like to join this discussion him or herself. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Because it contains Dang Gui & Bai Shao, it definitely does nouruish liver blood, and nourishment is a type of supplementation. >>>Bob have you run across PRC literature that look at formulas as wholes not parts (as i heard some in Taiwan saying). That is, for example, even though containing the above two herbs if cooked as a whole within lets say shao yao san may not have the regularly attributed functions of nourishing liver blood of these herbs? In that case shao yao san has a function that for example is what was quoting? I have never seen formulas discussed in such a way until my visit in Taiwan Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " < pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > " what was the original intent? " > > Personally, I'd say, who cares? and I would be with you on both accounts. just playing devil's advocate. I doubt my colleague would risk a face loss on this issue, since he is quite adamant about the point. my second hand report is however, accurate and can be confirmed by numerous other sources on this list. > > " how is it commonly understood today? " > > Because it contains Dang Gui & Bai Shao, it definitely does nouruish liver blood, and nourishment is a type of supplementation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 I don't know if this expresses the original intent of the formula, but this is from the source text, pardon my lumpy translation. From tai ping imperial grace formulary, roll nine [OB Gyn section], section one Treats blood vacuity exhaustion, five heart heat, pain in the trunk and limbs, substantial blurred vision, heart [unopened,unawake?] red cheeks, dry mouth and throat, heat effusion and thief sweating, decreased appetite and love of sleeping, and blood and heat contending, disregulated menstruation, periumbilical pain and swelling, cold and heat as in malaria. Also treats weakness of blood and yin vacuity in maidens, disharmony of ying and wei,moist hot phlegmy cough, emaciation, gradually transforming into steaming bone. Gan cao (lightly toasted till red, one half liang), dang gui (remove rootlets, file-grind?, lightly roast, ying ling [i assume this is fu ling](remove skin, white variety), shao yao (white), bai zhu, chai hu (remove rootlets, each one liang). Make the above into a coarse powder. Each dose is two qian, one large cup of water, one piece slice of sheng jiang with the skin removed, burnt and crushed, a little bit of bo he, boil together for seven minutes, discard the dregs and drink hot, there is no time limit [on the use of this formula] If the Chinese text doesn't come through I will send it as an attachment Par Scott é€é™æ•£ 治血虛勞倦,五心煩熱,肢體疼痛,é ç›®æ˜é‡, å¿ƒå¿ªé °èµ¤,å£ç‡¥å’½å¹²,發熱盜汗,減食嗜臥,åŠè¡€ç†±ç›¸æ, 月水ä¸èª¿, è‡è…¹è„¹ç—›, 寒熱如瘧。 åˆç™‚室女血弱陰虛, 榮衛ä¸å’Œ, 痰嗽潮熱, 肌體羸瘦,漸æˆéª¨è’¸ã€‚ ç”˜è‰ (微炙赤, åŠå…©), ç•¶æ¸ (去苗,銼,微炒), è …è‹“(去皮,白者) èŠè—¥ (白) 白術 柴胡 (去苗,å„一兩)。 上為粗末。æ¯æœäºŒéŒ¢,水一大盞,ç‡’ç”Ÿå§œä¸€å¡Šåˆ‡çš®ç ´, è–„è·å°‘許, åŒç…Žè‡³ä¸ƒåˆ†,去渣熱æœ,ä¸æ‹˜æ™‚候。 - " " < Thursday, December 04, 2003 12:22 PM xiao yao san > One of my chinese colleagues is adamant that xiao yao san has no blood or > qi supplementing action. Our basic texts in english describe this rx as > being for liver depression with qi and blood vacuity. However my colleague > says this formula was designed to prevent transmission of the disease from > the liver to the spleen, such as zhang zhong jing mentions in the foreword > to the SHL or the admonition in the nei jing to build a well before you are > thirsty. So the questions are: > > what was the original intent? > > how is it commonly understood today? > > if it is used differently today, does that matter (we also xiao chai hu > tang differently today) > > is it unreasonable to consider this rx as it is described in bensky? I do > note that in several books, I did see a modification described as such: > > IF there is concomitant qi vacuity, then add ren shen and huang qi > > why if the word IF used when qi vacuity is already present. It does not > say, if qi vacuity is extreme or severe, just IF it is present at all. > > on the other hand, the formula includes 3 of the 4 ingredients of si jun zi > tang; isn't that supplementing enough for mild qi vacuity. > > > > Chinese Herbs > > voice: > fax: > > " Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds " -- > Albert Einstein > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote: > > I don't know if this expresses the original intent of the formula, but this > is from the source text, pardon my lumpy translation. > > From tai ping imperial grace formulary, roll nine [OB Gyn section], section > one > Treats blood vacuity exhaustion, five heart heat, pain in the trunk and > limbs, substantial blurred vision, heart [unopened,unawake?] red cheeks, dry > mouth and throat, heat effusion and thief sweating, decreased appetite and > love of sleeping, and blood and heat contending, disregulated menstruation, > periumbilical pain and swelling, cold and heat as in malaria. similar sx are listed in Hsu's commonly used herb rx, which sticks close to source texts also. this seems to confirm the original use was not for qi vacuity. still, I agree with Bob that we can still use it this way today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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