Guest guest Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 I'd like to take some time during this season to reflect on the lifestyle choices our patients make and those we advise. Since we have opened the floor to discussion of what adaptations to the core diagnostic indicators of TCM patterns might be necessitated by american practice (patients don't report ribside pain, for example). We began this discussion by introducing the issue of standards in the PRC and how they apply to us, if at all. BTW, I suspect there are a lot more opinions out there then we have heard from on this matter. I will remind those who have been wary of posting in the past, the list is being very closely moderated at this time, mostly by my assistant Laurie Burton. The reason I start multiple threads is not because I want to talk about all these thing with the same dozen people. Only if others get involved can threads really develop. I can only get the ball rolling and make sure no one is injured in the process. Any, back to standards, a related matter are the " standards " of diet and lifestyle we impose upon our patients. Within the field, there are those who do pure CM in this regard, at least as they see it. Others mix and match western and eastern ideas. Others are quite new age. Others wholly modern. We have raw foodists, vegans, macrobiotics and blood typers in our midsts as well. Some advocate aerobics and weight training, others tai ji and yoga. In fact, I see immense diversity and straying from the " classics " or TCM in this area, even amongst those who would never stray in the same way when it came to herbology. So we have to first decide what it actually says on these issues in chinese texts upon which there is some consensus. Then determine whether the admonitions therein are truly medical or largely cultural - for as PU has written, the development of CM was strongly influenced by cultural factors which at times may have taken precedence over medical necessity or efficacy (consider the issue of why abdominal palpation never took hold in china - was it prudery or lack of clinical necessity). Finally , I would assess what modern research and epidemiology has to say on the subject. So what are the chinese " rules " of healthy life. Some of the common things we hear are early to bed, early to rise; eating light, clear, not overly sweet, greasy or spicy food; not eating till full; not eating late at night; not overworking physically or mentally; not having excessive sex, especially ejaculatory for men. Some of these make perfect sense, but some may be cultural vs. medical. mealtime - it makes sense that one should not eat too son before bed. Activity helps with digestion and food will easily stagnate in the sedentary horizontal position. However this assumes one goes to sleep at a certain time. If one eats at 9, but remains active till 12 or 1, then sleeps for 6-8 hours (latest research shows greater health with about 6-7 hours sleep, BTW). Is this any different physiologically than eating at 6 PM, sleeping at 9 PM and rising at 5 AM. Now we know nightshift workers have worse health than day workers, but this variation I describe is not quite that extreme. And I would submit that shift workers have many others factors bearing on their health than merely being up at night. While no culture I know of operates wholly at night and sleeps during the day, the variations I describe are within the norms of human society. In many very warm parts of the world (and remember humans evolved in a tropical climate of subsaharan africa, but the ancient chinese did not know this), normal lifestyle includes late meals and afternoon " siestas " . Now a fair comparison would be epidemiological, I believe. On one hand, we have the advice of doctors in the literate medical professions and we also have the eating patterns of the general populace. this also goes for everything below. Doctors say lots of things. Unless we have a group of people who took their advice in a widespread way - either a whole culture or a research group - we really don't know if the ideas have any validity. Diet also must be studied over a very, very long time. Unlike herbology, where the chinese have produced a huge number of what might be called pilot studies on the tx of various dz. It appears the traditional food choices advocated by the chinese are generally followed by the okinawans who have such great health and longevity. for those who are familiar with the less scientific studies of hunza and vilcabamba, they also conformed to this " norm " discussed just below. Research also seemed to confirm that diets high in fiber, fruits and veggies, complex carbs and low in animal fats resulted in the best health. However the mediterranean peoples of Greece, France, Monaco and Italy also have unexpected longevity and low morbidity, coming pretty close to the japanese (the world leaders in this area). Yet these peoples often eat late, enjoy wine and sex, consume relatively large amounts of fat, etc. I am not saying the chinese don't like or do these things. I am comparing what we know the mediterraneans do and what chinese docs supposedly advise. So there are clearly other factors at play here. But I do not think we can just advocate the chinese medical diet or the okinawan as the sole ideal. Let's look at some specific issues. food choices - should one eat dairy or not, beef or not, raw or cooked, steam or stir-fry. there is not one answer to these questions. In fact, portion size has turned out to be more important than dietary composition. However this is within certain parameters. What the italians, french and japanese have in common besides small portion sizes being the norm is the use of mostly wholesome, unprocessed foods in the diet like fish, veggies and grains. I am not suggesting one could eat 1200 calories of donuts and thrive, but who knows. I think the chinese concept of avoiding overly greasy foods (added fat) or overly sweet (added sugar) is good sense, but most of the specifics are probably as much cultural as medical (for example, the central importance of grains, common amongst agriculturalists, but not amongst forager-scavenger-hunter peoples). What about the role of religion, meditation and secularism. It has been shown that meditation improves health, as does prayer. So does petting a cat one hour per day. Anything that soothes the troubled spirit perhaps. I think the chinese, japanese, french and italians are all pretty secular people. It is generally accepted by sociologists that religious issues dominate discourse far more in america and the middle east than they do in the orient or europe. so of course when we look to the east, we are captivated by their religion and spirituality, seeing in it perhaps that which is lacking in our own,or so we think. I think we should be careful as to what we prescribe as sole remedies to modern life. Even alcohol, scourge of some, may make provide others the mental and physical freeflow so essential to good health. For others, a relaxation tape. Has anyone ever read the old book sex and destiny by germain greer? an interesting rambling jaunt through european history with lots of discussion of coitus interuptus or the virtue in withholding ejaculation. Apparently this idea was widely held in renaissance europe. So perhaps some cross cultural truths here. On the other hand, there does not seem to be a negative statistical correlation with excessive sex. In fact, I think most studies have shown the reverse, with lack of sexual activity being factors in some diseases. I have suggested before that the backbreaking labor was a factor in sexual prohibitions that may not apply in sedentary society. And that chronic STD's in ancient society may be a major factor that was not considered in assessing the detrimental effects of sex. Also that if stagnation is actually the cause of vacuity (ala yan de xin), then restraining sexual activity without learning techniques for circulating qi may be detrimental to most in modern society. I am curious about an honest assessment of what people see. Do those with the most careful macrobiotic regimens exhibit the best health? What evidence is there of excessive sexuality and disease? Do those who go to bed early live the longest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2003 Report Share Posted December 25, 2003 Yet these peoples often eat late, enjoy wine and sex, consume relatively large amounts of fat, etc. >>>And smock Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 I'm not sure it's the olive oil or the yogurt or the time of sleep that makes a person healthy. I think we also have to look at economic and social stressers. Personally, I wonder about the concequences of driving on Westerners and Spleen Qi Xu. There is another " disease pattern " (particularily rampant in Southern California) of worrying too much about ones health. I will say that many elderly people I see who seem to have good health are yoga practitioners. Is this because the healthy do yoga or because the yoga makes them healthy? I have a little joke I tell my patients. " We are Chinese Doctors so we say to eat Chinese Food. " The patient laughs and I go on to say that means eating fresh foods, a little meat etc.... I would say the best advice we can give our patients are the possibilities of behavior. What works best for them most comfortably is the their own " path " . d , wrote: > I'd like to take some time during this season to reflect on the > lifestyle choices our patients make and those we advise. Since we have > opened the floor to discussion of what adaptations to the core > diagnostic indicators of TCM patterns might be necessitated by american > practice (patients don't report ribside pain, for example). We began > this discussion by introducing the issue of standards in the PRC and > how they apply to us, if at all. > > > I am curious about an honest assessment of what people see. Do those > with the most careful macrobiotic regimens exhibit the best health? > What evidence is there of excessive sexuality and disease? Do those > who go to bed early live the longest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper for their diet; ie., people from northern regions eating more meat and fatty foods, people from tropical regions eating more fish and fruit, etc. I don't know how true this is, but I think it has some merit. I certainly don't believe that there is one " best " diet that is universally best for everyone. wrote: I'm not sure it's the olive oil or the yogurt or the time of sleep that makes a person healthy. I think we also have to look at economic and social stressers. Personally, I wonder about the concequences of driving on Westerners and Spleen Qi Xu. There is another " disease pattern " (particularily rampant in Southern California) of worrying too much about ones health. I will say that many elderly people I see who seem to have good health are yoga practitioners. Is this because the healthy do yoga or because the yoga makes them healthy? I have a little joke I tell my patients. " We are Chinese Doctors so we say to eat Chinese Food. " The patient laughs and I go on to say that means eating fresh foods, a little meat etc.... I would say the best advice we can give our patients are the possibilities of behavior. What works best for them most comfortably is the their own " path " . d , wrote: > I'd like to take some time during this season to reflect on the > lifestyle choices our patients make and those we advise. Since we have > opened the floor to discussion of what adaptations to the core > diagnostic indicators of TCM patterns might be necessitated by american > practice (patients don't report ribside pain, for example). We began > this discussion by introducing the issue of standards in the PRC and > how they apply to us, if at all. > > > I am curious about an honest assessment of what people see. Do those > with the most careful macrobiotic regimens exhibit the best health? > What evidence is there of excessive sexuality and disease? Do those > who go to bed early live the longest? Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 , <> wrote: > One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper for their diet; ie., people from northern regions eating more meat and fatty foods, people from tropical regions eating more fish and fruit, etc. I don't know how true this is, but I think it has some merit. I certainly don't believe that there is one " best " diet that is universally best for everyone. > > > Alex also stated that these ancestral influences span 7 generations only. Furthermore, it is Alex's in-class stated position that he does not offer lifestyle advice. Alex stated that the person's lifestyle was part of their whole presentation, and that his treatments are aimed at keeping the people healthy in spite of any negative habits. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 My boss, while working a construction job in New York City, claimed that eating donuts and M and M's for lunch, constituted a true " macrobiotic " diet since that what was available locally. Oh well.... :-) doug , <> wrote: > One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper for their diet; ie., people from northern regions eating more meat and fatty foods, people from tropical regions eating more fish and fruit, etc. I don't know how true this is, but I think it has some merit. I certainly don't believe that there is one " best " diet that is universally best for everyone. > > > > wrote: > I'm not sure it's the olive oil or the yogurt or the time of sleep that makes a person > healthy. I think we also have to look at economic and social stressers. Personally, I > wonder about the concequences of driving on Westerners and Spleen Qi Xu. There is > another " disease pattern " (particularily rampant in Southern California) of worrying > too much about ones health. I will say that many elderly people I see who seem to > have good health are yoga practitioners. Is this because the healthy do yoga or > because the yoga makes them healthy? > I have a little joke I tell my patients. " We are Chinese Doctors so we say to eat Chinese > Food. " The patient laughs and I go on to say that means eating fresh foods, a little > meat etc.... > I would say the best advice we can give our patients are the possibilities of behavior. > What works best for them most comfortably is the their own " path " . > d > > > , wrote: > > I'd like to take some time during this season to reflect on the > > lifestyle choices our patients make and those we advise. Since we have > > opened the floor to discussion of what adaptations to the core > > diagnostic indicators of TCM patterns might be necessitated by american > > practice (patients don't report ribside pain, for example). We began > > this discussion by introducing the issue of standards in the PRC and > > how they apply to us, if at all. > > > > > > I am curious about an honest assessment of what people see. Do those > > with the most careful macrobiotic regimens exhibit the best health? > > What evidence is there of excessive sexuality and disease? Do those > > who go to bed early live the longest? > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Thank you for helping me smile at something absurd today! wrote: My boss, while working a construction job in New York City, claimed that eating donuts and M and M's for lunch, constituted a true " macrobiotic " diet since that what was available locally. Oh well.... :-) doug , <> wrote: > One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper for their diet; ie., people from northern regions eating more meat and fatty foods, people from tropical regions eating more fish and fruit, etc. I don't know how true this is, but I think it has some merit. I certainly don't believe that there is one " best " diet that is universally best for everyone. > > > > wrote: > I'm not sure it's the olive oil or the yogurt or the time of sleep that makes a person > healthy. I think we also have to look at economic and social stressers. Personally, I > wonder about the concequences of driving on Westerners and Spleen Qi Xu. There is > another " disease pattern " (particularily rampant in Southern California) of worrying > too much about ones health. I will say that many elderly people I see who seem to > have good health are yoga practitioners. Is this because the healthy do yoga or > because the yoga makes them healthy? > I have a little joke I tell my patients. " We are Chinese Doctors so we say to eat Chinese > Food. " The patient laughs and I go on to say that means eating fresh foods, a little > meat etc.... > I would say the best advice we can give our patients are the possibilities of behavior. > What works best for them most comfortably is the their own " path " . > d > > > , wrote: > > I'd like to take some time during this season to reflect on the > > lifestyle choices our patients make and those we advise. Since we have > > opened the floor to discussion of what adaptations to the core > > diagnostic indicators of TCM patterns might be necessitated by american > > practice (patients don't report ribside pain, for example). We began > > this discussion by introducing the issue of standards in the PRC and > > how they apply to us, if at all. > > > > > > I am curious about an honest assessment of what people see. Do those > > with the most careful macrobiotic regimens exhibit the best health? > > What evidence is there of excessive sexuality and disease? Do those > > who go to bed early live the longest? > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 > wrote: > My boss, while working a construction job in New York City, claimed > that eating > donuts and M and M's for lunch, constituted a true " macrobiotic " diet > since that what > was available locally. Were they in season? -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 , wrote: > One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper for their diet; ie., people from northern regions eating more meat and fatty foods, people from tropical regions eating more fish and fruit, etc. I don't know how true this is, but I think it has some merit. I certainly don't believe that there is one " best " diet that is universally best for everyone. >>> Andrea: You're right. There is no diet (medicine, philosophy, religion, etc.) that is best for everyone. Doing things to promote adaption to the environment is generally a good rule to follow. And there are probably some aspects of diet that are genetic adaptations for metabolism to local environments. And, for example, practitioners shouldn't give everyone Yin Chiao because they have a cold. Colds and flu don't always start at the Taiyang level. And haven't for a few years now. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 , " bcataiji " wrote: > Alex also stated that these ancestral influences span 7 generations only. > > Furthermore, it is Alex's in-class stated position that he does not > offer lifestyle advice. Alex stated that the person's lifestyle was part of their whole presentation, and that his treatments are aimed at keeping the people healthy in spite of any negative habits.>> Brian: His is an interesting choice, but it seems that one would need to work harder to compensate for any negative habits. Especailly when it's sometimes simpler and more practical to just yell at patients. ;-) Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 , " James Ramholz " <jramholz@m...> wrote: > , wrote: > > One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of > one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper > for their diet; this might make sense in evolutionary terms if populations were relatively isolated for long periods and nature began to select for characteristics that would affect digestion of the local food (those who by chance already had stronger digestion for meat did better and had more offspring than those who did not have this advantage - it is incorrect to think that merely being in the environment spontaneously promoted adaptation in all those who lived there - that is predarwinian theory, yet often what many people think is meant by evolution). However, there are many other reasons why people survive to reproduce even if they are maladapted to the local food. Care from others and medicine are two that come to mind. I believe as long as there has been civilization, there has been reproduction by those who would not have been fit to survive in the wild. In fact, some evolutionary theorists believe the development of the human mind and culture has allowed most aspects of human adaptation outside subsaharan africa. Not variations in human physiology. the right food is the food that goes with your constitution, IMO. If you are weak, you need tonics, if excess, draining. It doesn't matter where the food came from or where you came from. There is plenty of real evidence that eating whole grains, veggies and fish in abundance is good for you as is eating a low calorie diet of just about anything wholesome. there is only speculation otherwise. I wouldn't waste my patient's time. I doubt there is any significant additional health gain to be made by eating ancestral foods. Ironically, this advice also flies in the face of those who advocate only eating local foods. Of course, as I mentioned it is incorrect evolutionary theory to think that people adapt to local environments as individuals in a single lifetime. It all sounds good on paper, but there is no evidence to support any of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 More typically here in NYC, I see people eat a bagel or muffin for breakfast, deli sandwich or salad bar for lunch, and then for supper, take out chinese or pizza, or, if they are into the club scene, tapas or other snacks. Donuts anytime. I read somewhere that at least 50% of the people who eat at salad bars regularly here have parasites. Not the best diet, to be sure. Pat My boss, while working a construction job in New York City, claimed that eating donuts and M and M's for lunch, constituted a true " macrobiotic " diet since that what was available locally. Oh well.... :-) doug , <> wrote: > One of my teachers at PCOM, Alex Tiberi, said that the food of one's own original ancestral region was typically the most proper for their diet; ie., people from northern regions eating more meat and fatty foods, people from tropical regions eating more fish and fruit, etc. I don't know how true this is, but I think it has some merit. I certainly don't believe that there is one " best " diet that is universally best for everyone. ============================================================================== NOTE: The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not read, use or disseminate the information. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft LLP for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. ============================================================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2004 Report Share Posted January 12, 2004 Unless they are on the Atkins diet On Jan 12, 2004, at 8:34 AM, Pat Ethridge wrote: > More typically here in NYC, I see people eat a bagel or muffin for > breakfast, deli sandwich or salad bar for lunch, and then for supper, > take > out chinese or pizza, or, if they are into the club scene, tapas or > other > snacks. Donuts anytime. I read somewhere that at least 50% of the > people > who eat at salad bars regularly here have parasites. Not the best > diet, to > be sure. > > Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Right. That's the big fad of the moment. Pat Unless they are on the Atkins diet On Jan 12, 2004, at 8:34 AM, Pat Ethridge wrote: > More typically here in NYC, I see people eat a bagel or muffin for > breakfast, deli sandwich or salad bar for lunch, and then for supper, > take > out chinese or pizza, or, if they are into the club scene, tapas or > other > snacks. Donuts anytime. I read somewhere that at least 50% of the > people > who eat at salad bars regularly here have parasites. Not the best > diet, to > be sure. > > Pat Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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