Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Has anyone noticed the seemingly common side-effect of frequent (increased) dreams with an mian pian? What would the pathomechanism for this be? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > Has anyone noticed the seemingly common side-effect of frequent > (increased) dreams with an mian pian? What would the pathomechanism > for this be? are they disturbing. is the product pure. melatonin causes this. I will assume your dx is correct, but an mian pian is supplementing, right. Can't remember. rarely use patents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > Has anyone noticed the seemingly common side-effect of frequent > (increased) dreams with an mian pian? What would the pathomechanism for this be? Jason: Since An Mien Pian treats heat or congestion in liver with agitation in the heart, it can open, release, and course the liver movement at the deeper emotional levels; creating a movement from the liver toward the heart, creating dreams. From the pulse picture related to the emotions, it is a movement from unconscious (liver and repressed growth) toward Heart (shen). You can either try increasing the dose to minimize that degreee of strong of thrust from the liver, or have the patient analyze and try to resolve the dream material. Once the liver is normalized and coursed, the dreaming should subside. So while you have the chance, I would want to know what they have been repressing. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Jim, , " James Ramholz " > > Jason: > > Since An Mien Pian treats heat or congestion in liver with agitation > in the heart, it can open, release, and course the liver movement at > the deeper emotional levels; creating a movement from the liver > toward the heart, creating dreams. I am unsure if an mian pian is exactly for that pattern, since there are no liver regulators included. So what pattern is it for? It is hard to say because it seems to have a little for everything. Let's look at it. suan zao ren yuan zhi fu ling zhi zi shen qu gan cao Is this a classical Rx? If one looks at things individually we may say it can treat xue xu, phlegm, heat, or food stag. I find it a bizarre Rx. Maybe there is something more… But it does work well for many people and I haven't yet seemed to figure out what those kind of people are. Back to the dreams. I view increased dreams as coming most commonly from two patterns. 1) xue xu 2) increased heat. Since it is hard to believe that this Rx could suddenly give one xue xu, I assume that there is an increase in heat. Why would this Rx increase heat? Hard to say. Any ideas? But maybe there is something else beyond TCM. In western science I believe that increased dreams is just an indicator that one is not reaching the deepest level of sleep. So any substance that does not allow this would increase dreams. any comments? > You can either try increasing the dose to minimize that degreee of > strong of thrust from the liver, or have the patient analyze and try > to resolve the dream material. Once the liver is normalized and > coursed, the dreaming should subside. So while you have the chance, > I would want to know what they have been repressing. BTW- increasing the dose has been tried in a few. They have said they get more dreams. But Jim, why do you think dreams = something repressed? This may be true, or just that some substance is not allowing one to reach the deep level of sleep...?? - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Jason, There are different prescriptions that have been marketed as 'an mian pian', I remember one with lots of mu li and long gu in it. Like many 'patents', prescriptions that were originally used for specific patterns end up being marketed or used for much wider presentations. Looking at the ingredients, this looks like bu mian/insomnia caused by food stagnation with disturbance of the shen. If the patient doesn't have food stagnation, the ingredients may disturb digestion. Perhaps this could disturb the sleep? If not, perhaps this patent has an unlisted drug in it? On Jan 4, 2004, at 8:59 AM, wrote: > Jim, > > , " James Ramholz " >> >> Jason: >> >> Since An Mien Pian treats heat or congestion in liver with > agitation >> in the heart, it can open, release, and course the liver movement > at >> the deeper emotional levels; creating a movement from the liver >> toward the heart, creating dreams. > > I am unsure if an mian pian is exactly for that pattern, since there > are no liver regulators included. So what pattern is it for? It is > hard to say because it seems to have a little for everything. Let's > look at it. > > suan zao ren > yuan zhi > fu ling > zhi zi > shen qu > gan cao > > Is this a classical Rx? > If one looks at things individually we may say it can treat xue xu, > phlegm, heat, or food stag. I find it a bizarre Rx. Maybe there is > something more… But it does work well for many people and I haven't > yet seemed to figure out what those kind of people are. > Back to the dreams. > I view increased dreams as coming most commonly from two patterns. > 1) xue xu 2) increased heat. > Since it is hard to believe that this Rx could suddenly give one xue > xu, I assume that there is an increase in heat. Why would this Rx > increase heat? Hard to say. Any ideas? > > But maybe there is something else beyond TCM. In western science I > believe that increased dreams is just an indicator that one is not > reaching the deepest level of sleep. So any substance that does not > allow this would increase dreams. any comments? > > >> You can either try increasing the dose to minimize that degreee of >> strong of thrust from the liver, or have the patient analyze and > try >> to resolve the dream material. Once the liver is normalized and >> coursed, the dreaming should subside. So while you have the > chance, >> I would want to know what they have been repressing. > > BTW- increasing the dose has been tried in a few. They have said > they get more dreams. But Jim, why do you think dreams = something > repressed? This may be true, or just that some substance is not > allowing one to reach the deep level of sleep...?? > > - > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 , " " wrote: > I am unsure if an mian pian is exactly for that pattern, since there are no liver regulators included. So what pattern is it for? It is hard to say because it seems to have a little for everything.>>> Those are the indications on the packaging. Suan zao ren is, in part, sour and goes into the heart and liver channels, and Yuan zhi goes into the heart channels; both are sedative and tranquilizing. So the formula works by connecting and regulating the liver, heart, and spleen. When looking at the interaction of these organs, we can say that we are also looking at the equivalent of the nervous system functioning from the Western point of view. <<< Let's look at it. > > suan zao ren > yuan zhi > fu ling > zhi zi > shen qu > gan cao > > Is this a classical Rx? >> Classical, yes, in at least a simple 5-Phase sense. Suan zao ren and Yuan zhi work on the heart and the connection to the liver, especially when supported by Zhi zi; Shen qu and Gan cao work on the connection of the heart with the spleen. From the pulse picture, the action of this formula affects the nerves and, therefore, also emotions. Notice that the formula works on the liver and GB channels which are interior to and exterior to the brain. > Back to the dreams. I view increased dreams as coming most commonly from two patterns. > 1) xue xu 2) increased heat. > Since it is hard to believe that this Rx could suddenly give one xue xu, I assume that there is an increase in heat. Why would this Rx increase heat? Hard to say. Any ideas? >>> Xue xu may be present in many cases of dreaming but, by itself, I don't see how it is a cause of anything because you're not really describing an interaction or how it happens; just creating an analogy, symptomatically. From our point of view, we need to look at the interactions and networking of the Phases. The TCM persepctive of looking at several patterns of symptoms starts to approximate looking at larger and more complex organizations in CM. The increased heat is an issue only when it moves from the liver toward the heart and brain. > But maybe there is something else beyond TCM. In western science I believe that increased dreams is just an indicator that one is not reaching the deepest level of sleep. So any substance that does not allow this would increase dreams. any comments? >>> That might be true, but I think this formula works by reinforcing the connections and making communication in the nervous system (Lv/GB-Ht-Sp network) stronger. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Jason, > There are different prescriptions that have been marketed as 'an mian > pian', I remember one with lots of mu li and long gu in it. Like many > 'patents', prescriptions that were originally used for specific > patterns end up being marketed or used for much wider presentations. Yes.. this is true... But I am curious about the specific Rx mentioned below.. Does anyone know if this has classical roots? > Looking at the ingredients, this looks like bu mian/insomnia caused by > food stagnation with disturbance of the shen. If the patient doesn't > have food stagnation, the ingredients may disturb digestion. I am unsure why you think food stag. - Yes shen qu is in there, but I don't think the other herbs support this Dx. IS there a reference on this or is this your own idea? A source from PF says, cool liver heat, calms spirit, and nourishes blood. But besides that I do think some food stag (secondarily) can be addressed with this Rx. Shen qu is also added to help digest herbs in some cases, but it seems far from necessary in this case…. What do you think? It still seems like a strange Rx. Perhaps > this could disturb the sleep? If not, perhaps this patent has an > unlisted drug in it? The patent is from Plum Flower so I think it is clean. Has anyone heard anything negative about PF? Interestingly, indicated for this patent is excessive dreaming (which is n surprise). -Jason > > > On Jan 4, 2004, at 8:59 AM, wrote: > > > Jim, > > > > , " James Ramholz " > >> > >> Jason: > >> > >> Since An Mien Pian treats heat or congestion in liver with > > agitation > >> in the heart, it can open, release, and course the liver movement > > at > >> the deeper emotional levels; creating a movement from the liver > >> toward the heart, creating dreams. > > > > I am unsure if an mian pian is exactly for that pattern, since there > > are no liver regulators included. So what pattern is it for? It is > > hard to say because it seems to have a little for everything. Let's > > look at it. > > > > suan zao ren > > yuan zhi > > fu ling > > zhi zi > > shen qu > > gan cao > > > > Is this a classical Rx? > > If one looks at things individually we may say it can treat xue xu, > > phlegm, heat, or food stag. I find it a bizarre Rx. Maybe there is > > something more… But it does work well for many people and I haven't > > yet seemed to figure out what those kind of people are. > > Back to the dreams. > > I view increased dreams as coming most commonly from two patterns. > > 1) xue xu 2) increased heat. > > Since it is hard to believe that this Rx could suddenly give one xue > > xu, I assume that there is an increase in heat. Why would this Rx > > increase heat? Hard to say. Any ideas? > > > > But maybe there is something else beyond TCM. In western science I > > believe that increased dreams is just an indicator that one is not > > reaching the deepest level of sleep. So any substance that does not > > allow this would increase dreams. any comments? > > > > > >> You can either try increasing the dose to minimize that degreee of > >> strong of thrust from the liver, or have the patient analyze and > > try > >> to resolve the dream material. Once the liver is normalized and > >> coursed, the dreaming should subside. So while you have the > > chance, > >> I would want to know what they have been repressing. > > > > BTW- increasing the dose has been tried in a few. They have said > > they get more dreams. But Jim, why do you think dreams = something > > repressed? This may be true, or just that some substance is not > > allowing one to reach the deep level of sleep...?? > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, > > including board approved continuing education classes, an annual > > conference and a free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 , " James Ramholz " <jramholz@m...> wrote: > , " " wrote: > > I am unsure if an mian pian is exactly for that pattern, since > there are no liver regulators included. So what pattern is it for? > It is hard to say because it seems to have a little for > everything.>>> > > > Those are the indications on the packaging. Does the package says that it , " can open, release, and course the liver movement > at the deeper emotional levels; " I just don't see it coursing the liver at all, which herb would do this? I seeing clearing the liver (heat) different than moving… Suan zao ren is, in > part, sour and goes into the heart and liver channels, and Yuan zhi > goes into the heart channels; both are sedative and tranquilizing. > So the formula works by connecting and regulating the liver, heart, > and spleen. I don't understand you connecting idea, can you explain (more) or give a reference. > > Classical, yes, in at least a simple 5-Phase sense. Suan zao ren and > Yuan zhi work on the heart and the connection to the liver, > especially when supported by Zhi zi; Shen qu and Gan cao work on the > connection of the heart with the spleen. I mean do you have a date or author for this Rx that is not modern. > > > > Back to the dreams. I view increased dreams as coming most > commonly from two patterns. > > 1) xue xu 2) increased heat. > > Since it is hard to believe that this Rx could suddenly give one > xue xu, I assume that there is an increase in heat. Why would this > Rx increase heat? Hard to say. Any ideas? >>> > > Xue xu may be present in many cases of dreaming but, by itself, I > don't see how it is a cause of anything because you're not really > describing an interaction or how it happens; Unsure what this means... I am under the impression that xue xu alone can cause freq dreams.. what connection, and why does there have to be this connection? Are you referring to spleen and heart xue xu or something? just creating an > analogy, symptomatically. From our point of view, we need to look at > the interactions and networking of the Phases. The TCM persepctive > of looking at several patterns of symptoms starts to approximate > looking at larger and more complex organizations in CM. The > increased heat is an issue only when it moves from the liver toward > the heart and brain. I do agree that heat in the liver alone will not create insomnia, .. it must hit the heart. But again any kind of heat that hits the heart can cause insomnia. But also heart blood xu or heart fire (alone) can also cause insomnia. But are you saying that you never can just have heart xue xu or heart fire – you must have something else that it is connected with? -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I read your post too quickly, thought it was zhi shi , not zhi zi. Sorry. Does seem like an unusual script. On Jan 5, 2004, at 11:46 AM, wrote: > I am unsure why you think food stag. - Yes shen qu is in there, but > I don't think the other herbs support this Dx. IS there a reference > on this or is this your own idea? A source from PF says, cool > liver heat, calms spirit, and nourishes blood. But besides that I > do think some food stag (secondarily) can be addressed with this > Rx. Shen qu is also added to help digest herbs in some cases, but > it seems far from necessary in this case…. What do you think? > It still seems like a strange Rx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 , " " <@h...> wrote: > Yes.. this is true... But I am curious about the specific Rx > mentioned below.. Does anyone know if this has classical roots? > According to page 222 of Chinese Patent Medicines: A Beginner's Guide, by Mark Taylor, An Mien Pian is based on Suan Zao Ren Tang. Then under that, the source is stated: Jin Gue Yao Lue. It is not clear from the typesetting and general format if the Golden Cabinet is stated as the source for AMP or for SZRT. Anyway, it claims to cool liver heat, reduce stress, and calm the mind to encourage sleep. Symptoms can include anxiety, restlessness, red eyes, poor memory, and mental weariness. So, if you consider Taylor and his book to be a reputable source, then An Mien Pian does have classical roots. Brian C. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.