more fibromyalgia WM

[Guest guest]

exceprted from reuters:

 

By Will Boggs, MD

 

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A persistent enterovirus infection in muscles may

be to

blame for some cases of chronic fatigue syndrome (sometimes called

fibromyalgia)

and others with chronic inflammatory muscle disease, a French team reports.

 

They detected genetic material (specifically RNA) from enteroviruses in 20

percent of

muscle biopsies from patients with chronic inflammatory muscle diseases and 13

percent of patients with fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome, but not from

healthy volunteers.

 

The findings favor a persistent infection involving defective viral replication

as a

cause of these conditions.

 

Such infections have been documented in the heart, with possible involvement in

heart enlargement; in pancreatic cells, possibly linked to juvenile diabetes;

and in the

central nervous system in association with a syndrome that afflicts aging

survivors

of polio, the researcher explained.

 

Pozzetto and colleagues investigated the presence of enterovirus in skeletal

muscle

biopsies from 15 patients with chronic inflammatory muscle diseases, 30

patients

with fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome, and 29 healthy subjects to test

their

hypothesis that skeletal muscle may play host to persistent enteroviral

infection.

 

Three patients with chronic inflammatory muscle disease and four patients with

fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue syndrome were positive for enterovirus RNA, the

team

reports in the Journal of Medical Virology.

 

None of the muscle biopsies in this study contained a particular viral protein,

the

researchers note, which " suggests a defective viral replication. "

 

However, he noted that so-called Coxsackie B viruses seem to play a key role in

persistent muscular infections. " To prevent this persistence, an inactivated

vaccine

directed toward these viruses could be indicated. "

 

 

 

SOURCE: Journal of Medical Virology, December 2003.

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> exceprted from reuters:

>

> By Will Boggs, MD

>

> NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A persistent enterovirus infection in

muscles may be to

> blame for some cases of chronic fatigue syndrome (sometimes called

fibromyalgia)

> and others with chronic inflammatory muscle disease, a French

team reports.

 

This seems to suggest that FM and CFS are one and the same. Only 13

percent of this group tested positive to the virus. Do you (anyone)

think that FM and CFS are the same? I'm sure that some s/s overlap

between the two. What percentage of these s/s need to be in common in

order for a singular diagnosis?

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Hi Fernando,

 

I have fibromyalgia, was diagnosed in 1993. I haven't done much reading and

research in recent years, so I'm not up on the current thinking. About 7-8

years ago, I had read in several places that there are some doctors (MD's) who

believe FMS and CFS are caused by the same bug; the diagnosis is FMS when body

aches and depression/anxiety are the predominant symptoms, and CFS when fevers,

sore throat and fatigue predominate. There wasn't any explanation as to why the

" bug " would manifest with different symptoms in different folks, however. Also,

the thinking about what the bug was, varied. Some docs thought Epstein-Barr,

some thought candida. My own personal experience with myself and with the many

FMS sufferers I have known, is that, like everything TCM tells us, people are

different. No two FMS sufferers I have known, have had identical symptoms, and

no two have benefitted from identical treatments. In fact, what works for me

changes every couple of years - perhaps I am

healing, but certainly, I am changing. Western medicine tends to have a more

static view of illness - or if it changes, it either worsens or goew away. My

experience is that I still have FMS, but it is a different illness than it was

11 years ago.

 

 

 

Fernando Bernall <fbernall wrote:

, " "

wrote:

> exceprted from reuters:

>

> By Will Boggs, MD

>

> NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A persistent enterovirus infection in

muscles may be to

> blame for some cases of chronic fatigue syndrome (sometimes called

fibromyalgia)

> and others with chronic inflammatory muscle disease, a French

team reports.

 

This seems to suggest that FM and CFS are one and the same. Only 13

percent of this group tested positive to the virus. Do you (anyone)

think that FM and CFS are the same? I'm sure that some s/s overlap

between the two. What percentage of these s/s need to be in common in

order for a singular diagnosis?

 

Fernando

 

 

 

 

 

Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

 

 

[Guest guest]

Do you (anyone)

think that FM and CFS are the same?

>>>>For those that believe that these are real diseases they are two different

diseases, however most patients who meet the criteria for FM also meet the CDC

criteria for CFS. Some believe that both are just the end of continuum (ie the

extreme of the bell curve) of pain amplification rather than a disease.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Andrea,

 

Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

 

> No two FMS sufferers I have known, have had identical symptoms, and

> no two have benefitted from identical treatments.

 

I have mixed feelings about the FMS diagnosis. I agree that, as in

most syndromes, not two patients have identical symptoms. However, I

have found in my practice that the majority of pt with FMS suffered

with hypotension and I think that therein lies a big part of the

problem and solution. Have you noticed such a pattern with your FMS

patient's blood pressure? And what do you do about it?

 

 

-fernando

 

 

 

> > NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A persistent enterovirus infection

in

> muscles may be to

> > blame for some cases of chronic fatigue syndrome (sometimes

called

> fibromyalgia)

> > and others with chronic inflammatory muscle disease, a French

> team reports.

>

> This seems to suggest that FM and CFS are one and the same. Only 13

> percent of this group tested positive to the virus. Do you (anyone)

> think that FM and CFS are the same? I'm sure that some s/s overlap

> between the two. What percentage of these s/s need to be in common

in

> order for a singular diagnosis?

[Guest guest]

Have you noticed such a pattern with your FMS

patient's blood pressure? And what do you do about it?

 

>>>It a well known fact that many of them have neurally mediated hypotension.

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I read recently that Fibromyalgia sufferers who think that their Fibro is

related to stress fair much better then those who believe it is due to a

virus. I have had numerous Fibro patients who do respond very well to the

same 4 acupuncture points. Water to put out the fire points ie Ht 3 and Kid

10. With my Fibro patients I do Japanese style acupuncture. I know that a

good sleep and eat cycle does so much for these patients. Also, like the

patient to work through any and all emotional baggage. It has been my

clinical observation that Fibro patients with allot of emotional baggage

tend to have more severe pain and more flare ups.

 

 

Teresa Hall, L.Ac, M.S, Q.M.E.

619-517-1188

-

" Fernando Bernall " <fbernall

 

Friday, January 09, 2004 5:37 PM

Re: more fibromyalgia WM

 

 

> Hi Andrea,

>

> Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

>

> > No two FMS sufferers I have known, have had identical symptoms, and

> > no two have benefitted from identical treatments.

>

> I have mixed feelings about the FMS diagnosis. I agree that, as in

> most syndromes, not two patients have identical symptoms. However, I

> have found in my practice that the majority of pt with FMS suffered

> with hypotension and I think that therein lies a big part of the

> problem and solution. Have you noticed such a pattern with your FMS

> patient's blood pressure? And what do you do about it?

>

>

> -fernando

>

>

>

> > > NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A persistent enterovirus infection

> in

> > muscles may be to

> > > blame for some cases of chronic fatigue syndrome (sometimes

> called

> > fibromyalgia)

> > > and others with chronic inflammatory muscle disease, a French

> > team reports.

> >

> > This seems to suggest that FM and CFS are one and the same. Only 13

> > percent of this group tested positive to the virus. Do you (anyone)

> > think that FM and CFS are the same? I'm sure that some s/s overlap

> > between the two. What percentage of these s/s need to be in common

> in

> > order for a singular diagnosis?

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Teresa Hall "

<Teresa.bodywork4u@w...> wrote:

>

> I read recently that Fibromyalgia sufferers who think that their Fibro is

> related to stress fair much better then those who believe it is due to a

> virus. I have had numerous Fibro patients who do respond very well to the

> same 4 acupuncture points. Water to put out the fire points ie Ht 3 and Kid

> 10. With my Fibro patients I do Japanese style acupuncture. I know that a

> good sleep and eat cycle does so much for these patients. Also, like the

> patient to work through any and all emotional baggage. It has been my

> clinical observation that Fibro patients with allot of emotional baggage

> tend to have more severe pain and more flare ups.

 

 

 

Teresa,

 

do you not find chinese herbs to be that essential or useful in FMS? The study

you

mention was posted here last week. I would ask if the reason people would fare

better thinking the condition was stress related rather than an incurable virus

isn't

obvious (though it took me a week to think of this). Hope is essential. Stress

can be

managed, diet can be changed and excesses of the seven emotions due to past or

current experiences can be addressed (but how do we do the latter w/o traning in

psychotherapy?). But a virus with no cure sounds something akin to AIDS.

Thus,hopeless. And what a patient thinks of their health status does not change

certain facts. If they have a virus and they feel better when they manage their

stress,

it could be because this enhances their immune system rather than because the

etiology of the condition was emotional. but this all begs the question that if

excess

emotions predispose someone to a virus in the first place by weakening immunity,

then what is the actual CAUSE.

 

This issue comes up in cancer treatment with psychotherapy and drugs. Patients

relieved of depression do better in survival, but this does not mean depression

caused the cancer. In fact, while a high % of cancer patients are depressed, it

is my

understanding ther is no higher incidence of depression in these patients prior

to

their diagnosis. so depression does not cause cancer in most cases, but

vice-versa.

This also raises an interesting question I would like to discuss. what do

people think

are the main causes of cancer? Emotions? diet? environmental toxins? and how do

the latter fit into TCM?

 

I personally think diet is the main factor. Leads to phlegm and fails to

nourish zheng

qi. People who eat good diets with five servings of fruits/veggies daily have

much

lower cancer rates regardless of whether they eat commercial or organic

vegetables.

so I think the issue of pesticides in most produce may be overblown as a cancer

cause, though perhaps rates are even better in those who eat mainly organic.

Many

people are emotional messes, no doubt. This is definitely a significant factor.

but it

is hard for me to believe that life is so much easier now. The nei jing begins

by

bemoaning the past where people lived a life in harmony with nature. Now they

eat

at all times of day, have sex indiscriminately, do not control their emotions,

etc.

Little has changed in this regard. Perhaps the main cause of cancer is the fact

that we

live so long it is inevitable. So that would call jing xu into play as a

factor. Jing and

qi provide order in the body; when they decline, perhaps the chaos of canceer is

natural. We know that 85% of men have prostate cancer by age 80 or so. didn't

someone say here something once about jing xu leading ot jing stagnation,which

is

cancer.

 

I would say the main factors that have changed in the past 100-1000 years are

definitely diet, the rise of smoking, poisons in the water and the air (as

opposed to

mainly in the veggies), the ubiquity of dangerous trans fats and the commercial

production of bef, pork and chicken. Whether emotions are more or less excess

now

is ultimately pure speculation.

 

[Guest guest]

You won't find FMS in blood pressure. As with most symptoms the cause is

not found in the outcome.

AFAIK, FMS symptoms are caused by different imbalances, but the

underlying force behind the imbalances is a whacked mineral balance and protein

deficiency. Often times a major carb sensitivity is involved.

Yes, you will find candida in some people, viruses in others, often low

blood pressure and low body temp. But the underlying issue with these people

can be found in body chemistry. Mostly major mineral imbalances which makes it

impossible for the body to keep up with the daily tasks of proper immune

balance, blood pressure, digestion, body temp, enzyme production, detoxification

ect ect ect.

As long as you look for a bug or germ or any other " thing " as the cause

of FMS, your search will be in vain.

From my point of view,

Chris

 

In a message dated 1/9/2004 10:15:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

Have you noticed such a pattern with your FMS

patient's blood pressure? And what do you do about it?

 

>>>It a well known fact that many of them have neurally mediated hypotension.

 

Alon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

Interesting perspective. As one of my teachers was fond of

saying, " different doctor, different opinion "

I'm sure you know what they say about opinions.

 

Are you saying the FMS pts had normal blood pressure and developed

hypotension secondary to FMS? If so, is your deduction

substantiated by clinical data prior to and after the onset of FMS?

 

Speaking of mineral imbalance, which minerals are your referring to

and from what studies do you get such information? Which mineral

would be responsible for the low blood pressure in your findings?

 

~fernando

 

 

, Musiclear@a... wrote:

> You won't find FMS in blood pressure. As with most symptoms

the cause is

> not found in the outcome.

> AFAIK, FMS symptoms are caused by different imbalances, but the

> underlying force behind the imbalances is a whacked mineral balance

and protein

> deficiency. Often times a major carb sensitivity is involved.

> Yes, you will find candida in some people, viruses in others,

often low

> blood pressure and low body temp. But the underlying issue with

these people

> can be found in body chemistry. Mostly major mineral imbalances

which makes it

> impossible for the body to keep up with the daily tasks of proper

immune

> balance, blood pressure, digestion, body temp, enzyme production,

detoxification

> ect ect ect.

> As long as you look for a bug or germ or any other " thing " as

the cause

> of FMS, your search will be in vain.

> From my point of view,

> Chris

[Guest guest]

What I am suggesting is that in a lot of cases of FMS there is a mineral

imbalance. That mineral imbalance often plays a role in the inflammatory

process that leads to FMS symptoms.

In some cases, there is a mineral deficiency that slows the body down.

Low body temp, slow heart beat, low blood pressure, shallow breathing,

depression, lactic acid, and pain.

In addition, digestion would be weak energy would be low. The person

would likely look for quick energy as they would be generally weak. A lot of

people go for stimulants like coffee, carbs and sugars. This leads to a roller

coaster with more depression and lower energy and overgrowth of candida with

the cycle leading into more inflammation and a greater imbalance leading to a

prolonged cycle of pain.

You could take this example see candida and say the FMS was caused by

candida but you'd be wrong. You could see the low blood pressure and do the

same

thing.

IMHO, FMS is a disease of mineral and protein imbalance with

inflammation. Find out where the imbalance and the cause of the inflammation is

and you

have your answer to FMS.

Typically the minerals involved are potassium, calcium magnesium,

selenium. In low blood pressure you may find sodium low.

There is often an EFA imbalance leading to inflammation and pain.

Where did I get this info? Lots of reading. From many books. There is a

bunch of clinical data to support this, if you read the doctors that are

publishing it.

Hope this helps,

Chris

 

In a message dated 1/11/2004 11:58:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,

fbernall writes:

 

Are you saying the FMS pts had normal blood pressure and developed

hypotension secondary to FMS? If so, is your deduction

substantiated by clinical data prior to and after the onset of FMS?

 

Speaking of mineral imbalance, which minerals are your referring to

and from what studies do you get such information? Which mineral

would be responsible for the low blood pressure in your findings?

 

~fernando

 

 

, Musiclear@a... wrote:

> You won't find FMS in blood pressure. As with most symptoms

the cause is

> not found in the outcome.

> AFAIK, FMS symptoms are caused by different imbalances, but the

> underlying force behind the imbalances is a whacked mineral balance

and protein

> deficiency. Often times a major carb sensitivity is involved.

> Yes, you will find candida in some people, viruses in others,

often low

> blood pressure and low body temp. But the underlying issue with

these people

> can be found in body chemistry. Mostly major mineral imbalances

which makes it

> impossible for the body to keep up with the daily tasks of proper

immune

> balance, blood pressure, digestion, body temp, enzyme production,

detoxification

> ect ect ect.

> As long as you look for a bug or germ or any other " thing " as

the cause

> of FMS, your search will be in vain.

> From my point of view,

> Chris

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Think so? What say you?

 

Chris

 

In a message dated 1/11/2004 11:04:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

IMHO, FMS is a disease of mineral and protein imbalance with

inflammation.

>>>>That is such an over simplification and as one that has been working with

nurtitional interventions in these patients i can tell you that you cant even

say this about the majority of such patients

Alon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

IMHO, FMS is a disease of mineral and protein imbalance with

inflammation.

>>>>That is such an over simplification and as one that has been working with

nurtitional interventions in these patients i can tell you that you cant even

say this about the majority of such patients

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

What say you?

>>>>A COMPLEX ISSUE WITH MANY CAUSES, IE I DO NOT THINK IT IS A SINGLE DISEASE

ALON

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chill man chill. I agree, it is not a single disease. There are a lot

of imbalances that can get a person to FMS symptoms. I disagree with you about

the mineral imbalance thing though. I have seen it in most FMS people.

How do you test for mineral imbalances?

Chris

 

In a message dated 1/12/2004 3:16:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

>>>>A COMPLEX ISSUE WITH MANY CAUSES, IE I DO NOT THINK IT IS A SINGLE DISEASE

ALON

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That may be why we have this disagreement. What are you sending to the

labs? Blood? Hair?

Chris

 

In a message dated 1/12/2004 9:49:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,

alonmarcus writes:

I disagree with you about

the mineral imbalance thing though. I have seen it in most FMS people.

How do you test for mineral imbalances?

>>>>>I have tried several labs

alon

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I disagree with you about

the mineral imbalance thing though. I have seen it in most FMS people.

How do you test for mineral imbalances?

>>>>>I have tried several labs

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have done, blood, hair and urine

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

 

No thank-you is needed. It's all in the spirit of furthering our understanding

of FMS and our medicine.

 

Most of the people I know with FMS are not patients, but are folks I have met

and spoken to in support groups and the like. Some are hypotensive (I always

have been) and some are not. Many are sub-clinically hypothyroid. A great deal

have Spleen qi xu with Liver qi depression. Some have profound yin xu. Another

significant group has blood xu, but all bear a complicated array of patterns.

Many are cold, but some are hot. A significant majority are high-stress

individuals, either as a cause or as a result of being chronically ill, and many

suffer from either depression or anxiety or both. Some have benefitted

tremendously, enough to say they are cured, with guaifenesin therapy. Others

have achieved similar results with aerobic exercise. Some are aided with

massage or chiropractic treatments; these worsen my condition.

 

Personally, I have not addressed my hypotension. My thyroid tests are " within

normal range " , but low, and I have tried to address this with seaweeds, to no

avail. I have also tried calcium, magnesium malate, and Vitamin D to no avail.

Initially, the only thing that helped with my muscle stiffness and spasms was (I

apologize in advance for sharing this bit of " bad medicine " ) consuming massive

amounts of sweets - I mean a bag or two of candy daily as therapy! Later I

learned that blood tonics and gentle liver movers (not Chai Hu!) were even more

effective. Now, when I get stiff and creaky, I needle Nogier's ear points for

acute spinal problems; I get the quickest symptomatic relief from this, but

otherwise, acupuncture has not been helpful. Sufficient rest helps, but too

much sleep makes me stiff; good food sustains good energy, but never helps with

my muscular symptoms; and lots of play time, down time, and " spiritual

connection " time are essential. I need to avoid getting too

hot or too cold or too stressed. I also need regular mild exercise and to

avoid being too sedentary. Like with everything else, frame of mind is key;

when I am happy, I feel my best. I feel most consistently well in spring and

fall.

 

 

 

Fernando Bernall <fbernall wrote:

Hi Andrea,

 

Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

 

> No two FMS sufferers I have known, have had identical symptoms, and

> no two have benefitted from identical treatments.

 

I have mixed feelings about the FMS diagnosis. I agree that, as in

most syndromes, not two patients have identical symptoms. However, I

have found in my practice that the majority of pt with FMS suffered

with hypotension and I think that therein lies a big part of the

problem and solution. Have you noticed such a pattern with your FMS

patient's blood pressure? And what do you do about it?

 

 

-fernando

 

 

 

 

 

Hotjobs: Enter the " Signing Bonus " Sweepstakes

 

 

[Guest guest]

Some are hypotensive (I always have been) and some are not.

>>>Remember that a " neuraly " controlled hypotension shown only on special tests

not simple blood pressure measurement

alon