Misconceptions and wei qi

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Bob, et al,

 

I look forward to hearing from my esteemed colleague regarding the following

comments. I am not sure that they are rooted in traditional theory, however,

they seem to fit my understandings in reference to this subject. Please feel

free to rip me a new one.....:-}

asked, does excess cause a weakness and I would have to answer yes

(maybe). If there is a yang repletion, does this not cause a yin vacuity? If

there is replete phlegm in the lungs does this not impede the flow of qi

thus causing a lung qi vacuity? This may not be a cause that occurs

immediately, but if left unchecked, isn't it inevitable?

 

Z'ev said: " With cold damage expressing as an exterior cold repletion tai

yang pattern, the exposure to cold blocks the flow of wei qi at the

exterior, causing aching, chills, mild heat effusion, and aching of the

joints. The pulse is floating and replete. Clearly, this is not a

vacuity pattern in any sense of the term. "

 

However, isn't it true that the pulse quality is caused by the replete

external cold evil? Clearly there is not much of a fight being put forth by

the body, if there was there would be a fever, not " mild heat effusion " ,

right? On page 91 of the Paradigm translation of the SHL it says, " In cold

damage, the interstices of the flesh are blocked, there is absence of

sweating, and the right qi is relatively strong; there fore this pattern is

also called an " exterior repletion pattern. " This implies that in order to

acquire an cold damage the right qi must be " relatively strong " . This is

somewhat clarified on page 93 when this statement is made, " Sweating fails

to occur when evil qi is strong and the patient's right qi is also strong.

The right and the evil qi contend and the right qi cannot push out evil qi,

which becomes lodged in the exterior and obstructs the outward movement of

sweat. " (I think this is what Z'ev used the patrol boat metaphor to

explain.)

said: " while the idea of wei qi stagnation may not be " textbook " per

se, I think it is implicit, both in ma huang tang pattern and the phlegm

accumulation I describe. "

 

However, the wei qi did not stagnate in the MHT patient until the cold

attack. It is only the cold attacking from the exterior that caused the log

jam, right?

said: " How can supplementing someone who has a yang constitution or

phlegm excess help in any way? wouldn't giving this rx unmodified serve to

increase yang qi, qi stagnation and thus phlegm? Having an excess of yang

qi does not make one impervious to colds, it just makes the colds manifest

differently. "

 

I think this is arguable. As Bob said the lungs store phlegm. It is produced

in the spleen. It is produced in a damp, vacuous spleen. Therefore, yu ping

feng san would treat phlegm in the lungs, would it not? Is it the best or

perfect formula for this, I doubt it but I also doubt it would make many

cases worse. Let us not forget this formula has acrid and bitter fang feng

and acrid sheng jiang both of which are dispersing and at least sheng jiang

treat phlegm. Further, it is my experience that there are very few true yang

excess patients in this culture. I'm not saying they don't exist, only that

there is a lot more stagnation leading to heat than actual replete yang

patients. Fang feng, sheng jiang and bai zhu all treat stagnations to one

extent or another and perhaps (now I'm really going out on a limb) huang qi

treat " wei qi stagnation " by securing it and giving it the strength (e.g.

the ice breakers) so that the exterior does not so easily get overwhelmed by

cold, especially with the other herbs in the formula.

 

Finally, I would like to say I have given Yu Ping Fang San to hundreds,

perhaps thousands of patients and customers (at my previously owned store)

to help them through the cold season. I can not think of one instance when I

thought better of it, although that either happened and I don't remember or

I simply didn't see anyone so robust that I second guessed them taking it. I

have never seen any adverse reactions and have had seemingly unending

applauding of the formula. I take it myself it there is a nasty one going

around as I know I will be constantly bombarded with evil qi. I give it to

my children at the same time. I think dosage can be the difference between

causing a problem and not. And finally, and shame on me for saying so but,

perhaps we can let go of our need for traditional support here and see that

this works, its safe.

BTW, I have a number of Western herbalist (trained practitioners seeing

10-60 patients a week) friends who prescribe huang qi without the

prohibitions we to and they have never seen the problems I keep

telling them they should be seeing. Why is that?

 

I'm eager to hear your responses,

thomas

 

 

Chinese Herbology and Acupuncture

acupuncture and herbal information

 

 

 

" Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. "

Lao Tzu

[Guest guest]

Tom,

 

Nicely done.

 

BTW, because it is upbearing and out-thrusting, some Chinese sources have argued

that, besides being supplementing and

upbearing, Huang Qi is qi-regulating. In my experience I think this is so. I

have never seen any problems with its use (other than

easily remediable abdominal bloating). Although I seem to remember I once ripped

into Z'ev in print for suggesting Yu Ping Feng San's

general prophylactic use, 15 years later, I no longer feel this way. (Z'ev, if

it was you, I'm sorry. If it wasn't you, I'm also sorry.)

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

, " " @e...>

wrote:

 

>

asked, does excess cause a weakness and I would have to answer yes

> (maybe). If there is a yang repletion, does this not cause a yin vacuity? If

> there is replete phlegm in the lungs does this not impede the flow of qi

> thus causing a lung qi vacuity? This may not be a cause that occurs

> immediately, but if left unchecked, isn't it inevitable?

 

I agree with your examples. I meant that comment solely in the short term

context of

a cold invasion leading to immediate wei qi vacuity.

 

 

said: " while the idea of wei qi stagnation may not be " textbook " per

> se, I think it is implicit, both in ma huang tang pattern and the phlegm

> accumulation I describe. "

>

> However, the wei qi did not stagnate in the MHT patient until the cold

> attack. It is only the cold attacking from the exterior that caused the log

> jam, right?

 

I was not referring to an MHT pattern when I made this comment, but just a more

general predisposition to cold. However I think you are correct about MHT

pattern

 

>

said: " How can supplementing someone who has a yang constitution or

> phlegm excess help in any way? wouldn't giving this rx unmodified serve to

> increase yang qi, qi stagnation and thus phlegm? Having an excess of yang

> qi does not make one impervious to colds, it just makes the colds manifest

> differently. "

>

> I think this is arguable. As Bob said the lungs store phlegm. It is produced

> in the spleen. It is produced in a damp, vacuous spleen. Therefore, yu ping

> feng san would treat phlegm in the lungs, would it not? Is it the best or

> perfect formula for this, I doubt it but I also doubt it would make many

> cases worse. Let us not forget this formula has acrid and bitter fang feng

> and acrid sheng jiang both of which are dispersing and at least sheng jiang

> treat phlegm.

 

 

reasonable analysis, though I would still not feel comfortable using this alone

in many

patients. I would use this rx in a spleen xu, wei qi patient with phlegm with

the

addition of er chen tang, but not by itself. I do not feel it sufficiently

addresses the

branch for my tastes, but I definitely want to hear other thoughts on the

root/branch

issue in this matter. I think many people tend to underaddress branches and

overaddress roots in TCM herbology, so I am very careful in making this

discrimination before using YPFS.

 

 

Further, it is my experience that there are very few true yang

> excess patients in this culture. I'm not saying they don't exist, only that

> there is a lot more stagnation leading to heat than actual replete yang

> patients.

 

 

again, I agree.

 

Fang feng, sheng jiang and bai zhu all treat stagnations to one

> extent or another and perhaps (now I'm really going out on a limb) huang qi

> treat " wei qi stagnation " by securing it and giving it the strength (e.g.

> the ice breakers) so that the exterior does not so easily get overwhelmed by

> cold, especially with the other herbs in the formula.

 

 

Fang feng is good liver qi herb, bai zhu for damp. I don't think sheng jiang is

considered that strong for phlegm, but it definitely helps. By adjusting

dosages, one

could perhaps make a YPFS that was somewhat dispersing as you suggest. but the

textbook rx definitely focuses on supplementation so I still think this rx could

worsen

stagnation w/o further mofification. Now I am thinking large doses, not 8 pills

TID.

I'll let someone else tackle the huang qi.

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

 

Although I seem to remember I once ripped into Z'ev in print for suggesting Yu

Ping

Feng San's

> general prophylactic use, 15 years later, I no longer feel this way. (Z'ev, if

it was

you, I'm sorry. If it wasn't you, I'm also sorry.)

>

> Bob

 

so we come full circle. do you advocate YPFS for all during cold and flu

season?

 

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Tom,

>

> Nicely done.

>

> BTW, because it is upbearing and out-thrusting, some Chinese sources have

argued

that, besides being supplementing and

> upbearing, Huang Qi is qi-regulating

 

Bob,

 

can someone find a textbook citation for frequent colds. Is the only cause wei

qi

vacuity or vacuities of some sort or are other patterns listed? I note all

three patterns

for CFIDs in your modern western diseases have some component of

supplementation. Anyway, I was not originally talking about using YPFS in those

who

get frequent colds, but rather for healthy folks who get frequent EXPOSURE to

those

with colds. for whatever a personal anecdote is worth, I get sore throat and

stuffy

nose and irritability from taking YPFS. If I address phlegm and liver qi

instead during

the cold season, I am much better protected (I believe my phlegm arises from

stagnation, not vacuity). I see this presentation in many relatively healthy

patients.

so it comes back to whether YPFs sufficiently addresses these aspects. Perhaps

it is

sufficiently qi regulating, but many of my patients have some heat brewing with

their

phlegm accumulation and qi stagnation. this is why I suspect this rx backfires

in

those with heat who DO NOT have a tendency to colds and flus. Its upbearing and

outhrusting and warming are then actually the detrimenal factors in these cases

as

none of these are indicated to this degree in such patients. Even if we can

debate the

supplementation issue, what about the warming and ascending in a patient even if

their heat comes from depression.

 

[Guest guest]

Finally, I would like to say I have given Yu Ping Fang San to hundreds,

perhaps thousands of patients and customers (at my previously owned store)

to help them through the cold season. I can not think of one instance when I

thought better of it, although that either happened and I don't remember or

I simply didn't see anyone so robust that I second guessed them taking it.

>>>This to me also calls for discussion of the text for error in treatments ie

SHL and why do we not see the same significant harmful effects described in this

text. What are we to do with that?

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have a number of Western herbalist (trained practitioners seeing

10-60 patients a week) friends who prescribe huang qi without the

prohibitions we to and they have never seen the problems I keep

telling them they should be seeing. Why is that?

>>>Including during high fevers (huang qi and ren shen)

Alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " "

wrote:

> , " Bob Flaws "

> <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> > Tom,

> >

> > Nicely done.

> >

> > BTW, because it is upbearing and out-thrusting, some Chinese

sources have argued

> that, besides being supplementing and

> > upbearing, Huang Qi is qi-regulating

>

> Bob,

>

> can someone find a textbook citation for frequent colds. Is the

only cause wei qi

> vacuity or vacuities of some sort or are other patterns listed? I

note all three patterns

> for CFIDs in your modern western diseases have some component of

> supplementation. Anyway, I was not originally talking about using

YPFS in those who

> get frequent colds, but rather for healthy folks who get frequent

EXPOSURE to those

> with colds. for whatever a personal anecdote is worth, I get sore

throat and stuffy

> nose and irritability from taking YPFS. If I address phlegm and

liver qi instead during

> the cold season, I am much better protected (I believe my phlegm

arises from

> stagnation, not vacuity). I see this presentation in many

relatively healthy patients.

> so it comes back to whether YPFs sufficiently addresses these

aspects. Perhaps it is

> sufficiently qi regulating, but many of my patients have some heat

brewing with their

> phlegm accumulation and qi stagnation. this is why I suspect this

rx backfires in

> those with heat who DO NOT have a tendency to colds and flus. Its

upbearing and

> outhrusting and warming are then actually the detrimenal factors

in these cases as

> none of these are indicated to this degree in such patients. Even

if we can debate the

> supplementation issue, what about the warming and ascending in a

patient even if

> their heat comes from depression.

>

 

 

 

I agree 100%. YPFS is not for everyone, period, IMO. IT is too

much for some people. For example, when I write preventative Rx's

for the cold and flu season, many times it consists of yin tonics/

moistens and movers. YPFS would just aggravate there condition.

Now, as far as the use of giving masses of people these pills and

getting praised, well.. I think this is silly., 1) the pills at the

basic dose is not comparable to giving a decoction, side effects are

almost minimal, but protection IMO is also minimal. 2) this evidence

is moot, because there is no history or follow up. I.e. you can

give 100 people a sugar pill and 30% are going to come back and say

how great you are (if not more), especially in relation to

preventing something that is not there. Let us ask how many people

out there are going to go to a store for flu prevention, buy

something (tons of people right..) then lets say in 2 weeks they get

a flu. (now) how many people are going to go back to the store and

tell the seller that it did not work… very few… So, This is not

enough evidence for me. But I agree there are many people out there

that it works well for.

 

-Jason